Henry Ward Beecher? William James? Upton Sinclair? Peggy Hopkins Joyce? Metellus Numidicus? Frederick Reynolds? John Dryden? Robert Bell? Della E. Stewart? Anonymous?
Question for Quote Investigator: Maintaining relationships is difficult. One must accommodate the needs and desires of people who are sometimes confusing, annoying, and ungrateful. Yet, these complex human connections produce happiness and fulfillment. Here are two versions of a pertinent saying:
(1) You can’t live with ’em, and you can’t live without ’em.
(2) We cannot live with them; we cannot live without them.
Would you please explore the provenance of this saying?
Reply from Quote Investigator: QI has found instances in this family of statements which refer to women, men, neighbors, wives, wicked people, and Irish people. The saying is difficult to trace because it can be expressed in numerous ways. Below is an overview with dates and attributions, beginning with partial matches.
177 AD Precursor: Set quoniam ita natura tradidit, ut nec cum illis satis commode, nec sine illis ullo modo vivi possit (English translation from Latin: We can neither live very comfortably with them nor at all without them) (Remark about wives attributed to ancient Roman statesman Metellus Numidicus by Roman writer Aulus Gellius)
1624 Precursor: We can neither live with them without inconvenience, nor without them at all (Remark about wives attributed to Metellus Numidicus by English writer Thomas Heywood)
1709 Precursor: But since we cannot live without ’em; Take ’em with all their Faults about ’em (Remark about women by an anonymous person; later incorrectly attributed to French poet Jean de La Fontaine)
1797 Precursor: That, let us rail at women, scorn, and flout them, We may live with, but cannot live without them (Remark about women from playwright Frederick Reynolds in “The Will: A Comedy”)
1875 Dec 15 Precursor: He was converted, and instead of “We can’t live with them,” it was, “We can’t live without them” (Remark about black customers by George S. Paine)
1882 May 09: We can’t live with them and we can’t live without them (Remark about Irish people attributed to clergyman Henry Ward Beecher)
1883 Oct 22: We can’t live without them or with them (Remark about Irish people attributed to clergyman Henry Ward Beecher)
1885 Jun 24: We cannot live happily with our wives, yet we cannot live happily without them (Remark about wives attributed to Metullus (Metellus Numidicus))
1887 Jun: Though in a general way he cannot live without them, yet, as regards certain individuals, it often falls out that he cannot live with them either (Remark about humans living in tribes by psychologist William James)
1888: You cannot live without them, but you ought not to live with them, nor seek their society (Remark about “the wicked” by Father John Crasset)
1892 Mar 18: We cannot live with them and we cannot live without them (Remark about women by Adiel Sherwood)
1905: You can’t live with them, and you can’t live without them (Remark about wives in a humor book compiled by Harry L. Newton)
1920 Mar 09: We cannot live without them, but how hard we sometimes find it to live with them! (Remark about men by columnist Della E. Stewart)
1926 Jun 30: Neighbors! we can’t live with them, and we can’t live without them (Remark about neighbors by Mary Caroline Davies)
1927: You can’t live with ’em and you can’t live without ’em, and what sort of a mess is it? (Remark about sex in the novel “Oil” by Upton Sinclair)
1930 Mar 02: You can’t live with them, and you can’t live without them! (Remark about men by Peggy Hopkins Joyce)
Below are details for selected citations in chronological order.
Circa 177 AD the Roman writer Aulus Gellius wrote “Noctes Atticae” (“The Attic Nights”) which contained a passage quoting the Roman statesman Metellus Numidicus who died circa 91 BC. Below is the passage in Latin followed by an English translation. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
Multis et eruditis viris audientibus legebatur oratio Metelli Numidici, gravis ac diserti viri, quam in censura dixit ad populum de ducendis uxoribus, cum eum ad matrimonia capessenda hortaretur. In ea oratione ita scriptum fuit: “Si sine uxore pati possemus, Quirites, omnes ea molestia careremus; set quoniam ita natura tradidit, ut nec cum illis satis commode, nec sine illis ullo modo vivi possit, saluti perpetuae potius quam brevi voluptati consulendum est.”
A number of learned men were listening to the reading of the speech which Metellus Numidicus, an earnest and eloquent man, delivered to the people when he was censor, On Marriage, urging them to be ready to undertake its obligations. In that speech these words were written: “If we could get on without a wife, Romans, we would all avoid that annoyance; but since nature has ordained that we can neither live very comfortably with them nor at all without them, we must take thought for our lasting well-being rather than for the pleasure of the moment.”
John C. Rolfe performed the translation above which appeared in a volume in the Loeb Classical Library series.
In 1624 Thomas Heywood published “Gynaikeion, Or, Nine Bookes of Various History Concerninge Women” which included an English rendering of the remarks attributed to Metellus Numidicus:2
Memorable are the words of Metellus in a publike Oration to the people: If wee could possibly be without wives, O Romans (saith he) wee might all of us be free from that molestation and trouble; but since Nature incites us, and necessitie compells us to this exigent, That wee can neither live with them without inconvenience, nor without them at all; more expedient it is therefore, that we ayme at the generall and lasting profit, than at our owne private and momentanie pleasure.
In 1709 the publisher Jacob Tonson released “Poetical Miscellanies: The Sixth Part Containing a Collection of Original Poems with Several New Translations by the Most Eminent Hands”. This series began with four volumes supervised by the famous poet and playwright John Dryden, but he died in 1700. The fifth and sixth volumes were published by Jacob Tonson. The sixth volume contained a poem titled “Woman” with an anonymous authorship. The following six lines appeared as the final verse of the poem. The phrase “the Fair” referred to women. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:3
Then let us not, with fruitless Care,
Expect Perfection in the Fair;
But since we cannot live without ’em;
Take ’em with all their Faults about ’em;
And stedfastly this Truth believe,
That ev’ry Woman comes from Eve.
The highlighted lines above partially matched the saying under examination. The couplet expressed an ambivalence about women.
In 1735 the compilation “Tales and Novels in Verse, From the French of La Fontaine by Several Hands” appeared. This book contained English translations of works by the French poet Jean de La Fontaine who died in 1695. The book reprinted the final verse of the anonymous poem “Woman”.4
This verse was placed at the end of La Fontaine’s poem “Joconde”, but this was a mistake because this English verse did not correspond to any verse within the original French poem “Joconde”. There is no substantive evidence that La Fontaine wrote this verse in any of his works.
In 1797 the English playwright Frederick Reynolds published “The Will: A Comedy in Five Acts”. Act three contained the following:5
That, let us rail at women, scorn, and flout them,
We may live with, but cannot live without them.
The final line above was a partial match for the saying. Also, the combined lines expressed ambivalence. Thus, the meaning was similar to the saying under examination.
In 1854 a compilation titled “The Annotated Edition of the English Poets” appeared. A section was devoted to the works of John Dryden. A footnote in this section presented a slight rephrasing of the two lines above from Frederick Reynolds. The footnote mentioned “The Will” but did not specify any author:6
As for the women, though we scorn and flout ’em,
We may live with, but cannot live without ’em.
The Will.
In 1867 the compilation “A Dictionary of Quotations from the English Poets” appeared. The two lines above were incorrectly attributed to John Dryden. This error probably happened because the footnote occurred in a section of the 1854 book dedicated to Dryden:7
As for the women, though we scorn and flout ’em,
We may live with, but cannot live without ’em.
Dryden, The Will, v. 4
In 1876 “The Chicago Daily Tribune” of Illinois printed a letter which described the experiences of a merchant in Greenville, South Carolina who was selling goods to white and black people:8
But one day a merchant kept strict account of the sales to whites and negroes separately. At night he found he had sold to the whites goods to the value of $60, to negroes to the value of $90. He was converted, and instead of “We can’t live with them,” it was, “We can’t live without them.”
The letter above contained a match for the saying, but the meaning was different. The merchant simply changed his opinion, but a genuine instance of the saying should express simultaneous and contradictory opinions.
In 1882 Henry Ward Beecher delivered a speech at Plymouth Church in New York. Beecher spoke on several topics, and he used the saying while commenting on Irish people in the United States:9
They have been unfortunately like the element sometimes found in domestic life. They are so good and so bad that we can’t live with them and we can’t live without them. (Laughter).
The statement above was the earliest close match with the correct meaning found by QI; however, searching is difficult, and QI believes earlier instances probably exist.
In 1883 Henry Ward Beecher employed a concise version of the saying during another oration at Plymouth Church:10
Mr. Beecher hastened to say that he was not a blarney admirer of the Irish, for “we can’t live without them or with them” …
In 1885 “The Solomon Sentinel” of Kansas printed a rephrased version of the ancient statement from Metellus Numidicus:11
We cannot live happily with our wives, yet we cannot live happily without them. — Metullus.
In 1887 the famous U.S, psychologist William James published a piece in “The Popular Science Monthly”. James wrote about human social groupings:12
In many respects man is the most ruthlessly ferocious of beasts. As with all gregarious animals, “two souls,” as Faust says, “dwell within his breast,” the one of sociability and helpfulness, the other of jealousy and antagonism to his mates. Though in a general way he can not live without them, yet, as regards certain individuals, it often falls out that he can not live with them either.
In 1888 the book “Meditations for Every Day in the Year from the Christian Considerations of Father John Crasset” included the following verse about “the wicked”:13
The wicked help to sanctify the good,
But the good cease to be good,
If they are pleased with their company.
You cannot live without them,
But you ought not to live with them,
Nor seek their society.
In 1892 “The St Louis Republic” in Missouri published a piece that included comments from Adiel Sherwood. The word “murmur” was spelled “murmer”:14
There are more women than men on earth. Perchance, it is not every woman a man can live with, and he needs “three chances to guess.”
In sorrow let us murmer, “We cannot live with them and we cannot live without them.”
In 1905 the humor book “A Bundle of Burnt Cork Comedy” by Harry L. Newton contained the following:15
Well, my wife had been gone over three weeks by now, and I was getting lonesome for another wife. You can’t live with them, and you can’t live without them. Nature does certainly play funny tricks on us!
In 1920 “Binghamton Press” of New York printed a column by Della E. Stewart which contained the following:16
Alas! for poor, helpless men! We cannot live without them, but how hard we sometimes find it to live with them!
In 1926 the religious newspaper “Presbyterian Standard” of North Carolina printed an article about neighbors which included the following:17
Neighbors! we can’t live with them, and we can’t live without them—here’s luck to them—and sympathy!
In 1927 Upton Sinclair published “Oil! A Novel” which included the following:18
“And find out, old son, what the hell we going to do about sex? You can’t live with ’em and you can’t live without ’em, and what sort of a mess is it?”
In 1930 “The Sunday Post” in Glasgow, Scotland published an article about Peggy Hopkins Joyce, a young woman who had experienced multiple divorces. She expressed unhappiness with men:19
“My book is going to tell the truth about marriage and tell why husbands are failures! They’re all failures so far as I am concerned. In fact, all men are failures! You can’t live with them, and you can’t live without them!”
In conclusion, precursors started to appear in ancient times. The first close match found by QI occurred in an 1882 speech by Henry Ward Beecher who was discussing the Irish people. Yet, QI believes earlier close instances probably exist. The template was applied to women in 1892, and the template was applied to men in 1930.
Image Notes: Silhouette of a couple sitting back-to-back based on an image from Sujal Patel at Unsplash. The image has been altered, cropped, and resized.
Acknowledgements: Great thanks to Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Rich Lowenthal, and Dan Goncharoff whose discussion and inquiry led QI to formulate this question and perform this exploration. Lighter found helpful citations from 1907 and 1908. Goranson found a wonderful attribution to Metellus Numidicus from 1851. Lowenthal found the Latin text ascribed to Metellus Numidicus and an English translation in the Loeb Classical Library series.
- 1927, The Attic Nights of Aulus Gellius, Latin to English Translation by John C. Rolfe (University of Pennsylvania), Volume 1 of 3, Series: The Loeb Classical Library, Book I, Section: VI, Quote Page 30 and 31, William Heinemann, London. (Google Books Full View) Latin link English link ↩︎
- 1624, Gynaikeion, Or, Nine Bookes of Various History Concerninge Women by Thomas Heywood, The Seventh Booke, Chapter: Of Matrimonie, and Coniugall Love, Quote Page 327, Adam Islip, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1709, Poetical Miscellanies: The Sixth Part Containing a Collection of Original Poems, With Several New Translations by the Most Eminent Hands, Woman, Start Page 333, Quote Page 362, Printed for Jacob Tonson, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1735, Tales and Novels in Verse, From the French of La Fontaine by Several Hands, Joconde, Quote Page 28, Published and Compleated by Samuel Humphreys, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1797, The Will: A Comedy in Five Acts as it is Performed at The Theatre-Royal, Drury-Lane by Frederick Reynolds, Second Edition, Act III, Character: Howard, Quote Page 40, Printed for G. G. and J. Robinson, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1854, The Annotated Edition of the English Poets by Robert Bell, Section: John Dryden, Cleomenes; or the Spartan Hero 1692, Fidelity, Footnote, Quote Page 245, John W. Parker and Son, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1867, A Dictionary of Quotations from the English Poets, Compiled by Henry G. Bohn, Topic: Woman, Women, Quote Page 701, Printed for Private Distribution, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1876 December 15, The Chicago Daily Tribune, Letter to the Editor, Letter Title: Federal Troops in the South, Letter From: George S. Paine, Quote Page 7, Column 5, Chicago, Illinois. (Newspapers_com) link ↩︎
- 1882 May 9, Hazleton Sentinel, Beecher on the Murder, Quote Page 1, Column 1, Hazleton, Pennsylvania. (Newspapers_com) link ↩︎
- 1883 October 22, The New York Times, Back in Plymouth Church: Mr. Beecher Again Talking to His Congregation, Quote Page 5, Column 5, New York, New York. (Newspapers_com) link ↩︎
- 1885 June 24, The Solomon Sentinel, Golden Words, Quote Page 4, Column 8, Solomon City, Kansas. (Newspapers_com) link ↩︎
- 1887 June, The Popular Science Monthly, Some Human Instincts by William James (Professor of Philosophy in Harvard College), Start Page 160, Quote Page 163, D. Appleton and Company, New York. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1888, Meditations For Every Day in the Year from the Christian Considerations of Father John Crasset, Translated by The Very Rev. T. B. Snow, Fifth Sunday after the Epiphany, Quote Page 166 and 167, R. Washbourne, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1892 March 18, The St Louis Republic, Irish Patriots: The Knights of St. Patrick’s Annual Banquet, Adiel Sherwood, Start Page 2, Quote Page 3, Column 3, St. Louis, Missouri. (Newspapers_com) link ↩︎
- 1905 Copyright, A Bundle of Burnt Cork Comedy: Original Cross-Fire Conversations, Gags, Retorts, Minstrel Monologues, and Stump Speeches by Harry L. Newton, Chapter: I’m My Grandfather, Quote Page 79, T. S. Denison & Company, Minneapolis, Minnesota. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1920 March 9, Binghamton Press, Just Between Ourselves by Della E. Stewart, Quote Page 12, Column 3, Binghamton, New York. (Newspapers_com) link ↩︎
- 1926 June 30, Presbyterian Standard, Nay, Nay, Neighbors! by Mary Caroline Davies in The New Outlook, Quote Page 15, Column 4, Presbyterian Standard Publishing Company, Charlotte, North Carolina. (Internet Archive) link ↩︎
- 1927 Copyright, Oil! A Novel by Upton Sinclair, Chapter 13: The Monastery, Quote Page 324, Grosset & Dunlap Publishers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link ↩︎
- 1930 March 2, The Sunday Post, Why Husbands Are Failures, Quote Page 10, Column 2, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland. (British Newspaper Archive) ↩︎