Writing About Music is Like Dancing About Architecture

Laurie Anderson? Steve Martin? Frank Zappa? Martin Mull? Elvis Costello? Thelonius Monk?

Dear Quote Investigator: I have a difficult riddle for you. A mailing list I belong to has discussed the following quotation several times during the past ten years, and the question of its origin has never been satisfactorily resolved.

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.

Laurie Anderson, Steve Martin, Frank Zappa, Martin Mull, Elvis Costello, Thelonius Monk, Clara Schumann, Miles Davis, George Carlin and several other people have been credited with concocting this extraordinarily popular and enigmatic simile. There is another common version of the quote: “Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.” Is there any chance that you could attempt to trace this famous saying?

Quote Investigator: With the help of colleagues, correspondents, and wonderful music librarians QI can report some revealing citations. The first close match appears in the “Detroit Free Press” of Michigan in February 1979 within a column titled “Bob Talbert’s quotebag” which presents miscellaneous quotations. The dots are in the original text. Emphasis added to excerpts by QI:[ref] 1979 February 18, Detroit Free Press, Bob Talbert’s quotebag, Quote Page 19C, Column 5, Detroit, Michigan. (Newspapers_com)[/ref]

Martin Mull . . .
. . . Comedian-musician on music criticism: “Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.”

The second close match appears in a magazine dedicated to the history of rock and roll called “Time Barrier Express”. The September-October 1979 issue contains a profile of the group Sam & Dave by Gary Sperrazza in which he discusses the interplay and rapport of the duo:[ref] 1979 September-October, Time Barrier Express, “Looka Here! It’s Sam & Dave!” by Gary Sperrazza, Page 25, Column 1, Issue Number 26, Volume 3, Number 6, White Plains, N.Y. (Verified using scanned images from the Music Library & Sound Recordings Archives at Bowling Green State University; Great thanks to the librarian at BGSU)[/ref]

All quick, very natural, and captured on vinyl. It’s so hard to explain on paper, you’ll just have to find the records and listen for yourself (because I truly believe — honest — that writing about music is, as Martin Mull put it, like dancing about architecture).

Based on current evidence QI believes that Martin Mull is the most likely originator of this expression. It is not clear how Bob Talbert and Gary Sperrazza heard or read about the quotation. Mull did release several albums combining comedy and music in the 1970s. He also appeared in the television soap opera parody “Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman”, and the talk show parody “Fernwood 2 Night” (later renamed “America 2-Night”). It is possible that he used the phrase in one of these venues, or perhaps he said it during a stage performance or interview.

Researchers have been attempting to trace this well-known saying for many years. It is a recurrent topic in discussion forums and on mailing lists. Alan P. Scott was the key pioneer in this endeavor, and he has created a wonderful webpage that records his gleanings and includes a comprehensive list of people that have been credited with the quotation.[ref] Alan P. Scott authored webpage about the origin of the saying “Talking about music is like dancing about architecture” (Accessed 2010 November 7) link [/ref]

The clever maxim was probably not created ex nihilo. QI has found a family of similar expressions about music that date back to 1918. This backstory helps to illuminate the aphorism, and it begins with a remark involving “singing about economics.”

The earliest statement that QI has located that discusses the inherent difficulty of writing about music and compares it to singing about something is dated February 9, 1918 in the New Republic:[ref] 1918 February 9, The New Republic, The Unseen World by H. K. M., Page 63, Vol. 14, The Republic Pub. Co.  (Google Books gives an incorrect date of 1969. Quotation verified on microfilm) link [/ref]

Strictly considered, writing about music is as illogical as singing about economics. All the other arts can be talked about in the terms of ordinary life and experience. A poem, a statue, a painting or a play is a representation of somebody or something, and can be measurably described (the purely aesthetic values aside) by describing what it represents.

In 1921 the remark reappears in the form of an adroit simile in the journal “The Freeman”:[ref] 1921 October 5, The Freeman, Vol. 4, No. 82, Music, Mysticism and Madness by Winthrop Parkhurst, Page 93, The Freeman, Inc., New York. (Google full view) link [/ref]

Like the musical critic who lamented impotently that “talking about music is like singing about economics,” those musicians with a knack for literary expression may quite possibly be frightened off from a task which is reputed to be as arduous as turning “Das Kapital” into a song.

In modern times the two most common templates are the following:

Writing about music is like ____ about ____.
Talking about music is like ____ about ____.

Over a period of decades different words and phrases have been substituted into the slots of these templates. For example, dancing, singing, and knitting have been placed into the first slot; architecture, economics, and football have been placed into the second slot.

In 1930 the same author, Winthrop Parkhurst, repeated his observation in an influential scholarly musical journal called The Musical Quarterly. He also elevated the simile to the status of an apophthegm:[ref] 1930 July, The Musical Quarterly, “Music, the Invisible Art” by Winthrop Parkhurst, Vol. 16, No. 3, Page 298-299, G. Schirmer now Oxford University Press. (Google snippet; Verified on paper) one link two link [/ref]

Some critic once observed that talking about music is like singing about economics; and it must be admitted that most conversation about music supports the apophthegm, for it is commonly as strange a perversion of the subject as would be the transformation of Das Kapital into a lullaby.

The next citation in chronological order is the one given above from the “Detroit Free Press” in February 1979. This instance replaces “singing about economics” with “dancing about architecture”:[ref] 1979 February 18, Detroit Free Press, Bob Talbert’s quotebag, Quote Page 19C, Column 5, Detroit, Michigan. (Newspapers_com)[/ref]

Martin Mull . . .
. . . Comedian-musician on music criticism: “Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.”

In September 1979 the maxim is attributed to Martin Mull by Gary Sperrazza:[ref] 1979 September-October, Time Barrier Express, “Looka Here! It’s Sam & Dave!” by Gary Sperrazza, Page 25, Column 1, Issue Number 26, Volume 3, Number 6, White Plains, N.Y. (Verified using scanned images from the Music Library & Sound Recordings Archives at Bowling Green State University; Great thanks to the librarian at BGSU)[/ref]

All quick, very natural, and captured on vinyl. It’s so hard to explain on paper, you’ll just have to find the records and listen for yourself (because I truly believe — honest — that writing about music is, as Martin Mull put it, like dancing about architecture).

The December 1979 issue of “Arts Magazine” includes a piece about the painter Michael Madore by the critic Thomas McGonigle. The saying is attributed to Martin Mull; however, the domain of the quotation is knowingly transformed to painting. Even in 1979 McGonigle refers to the expression as a “famous dictum”:[ref] 1979 December, Arts Magazine, Michael Madore by Thomas McGonigle, Page 5, Column 1, Volume 54, Number 4, Art Digest, Co., New York. (Verified on paper; Great thanks to Mike Kuniavsky for pointing out this citation)[/ref]

So with Madore we have the classic situation: no limits, thus all limits, or to slightly alter the famous Martin Mull dictum: Writing about painting is like dancing about architecture.

In July 1980 a revised version of Gary Sperrazza’s profile of Sam & Dave appeared in the publication Black Music and Jazz Review. The attribution to Martin Mull is restated:[ref] 1980 July, Black Music and Jazz Review, Sam & Dave, Volume 3, Issue 3, Page 24, IPC Specialist & Professional Press, London. (Verified using scanned images from the Music Library of the University of Virginia; Great thanks to the librarian at UVA) link [/ref]

I’m not going to attempt to describe the magic here, you’ll have to check the record yourself, cos to write about this level of music is (as Martin Mull so aptly put it) like dancing about architecture.

In October 1980 when the singer-songwriter David Coverdale of the rock band Whitesnake was interviewed in a Cleveland, Ohio newspaper he was reticent to share his thoughts about music, and he employed a simile with singing that harked back to the early citations in 1918 and 1921:[ref] 1980 October 10, The Plain Dealer, Whitesnake – warmer than purple by Jane Scott, Quote Page 36, Column 1, Cleveland, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref]

He thinks talking about music is like singing about football.

There are a massive number of cites for this aphorism and for variants that fit the templates. Therefore, only a small sample of these citations can be presented here. The arrangement continues in chronological order. Shortly before John Lennon’s death in 1980 he granted an interview to Playboy magazine. He was asked about the interpretation and misinterpretation of his song lyrics, and he responded with a simile that fits the template:[ref] 2000, (1980 Interview with John Lennon), All we are saying: the last major interview with John Lennon and Yoko Ono, Conducted by David Sheff, Page 88, Macmillan, New York. (Google Books preview; Many thanks to Vic Steinbok for pointing out this citation) link [/ref]

Listen, writing about music is like talking about fucking. Who wants to talk about it? But you know, maybe some people do want to talk about it.

In 1982 the musician Mike Oldfield, famous for the composition Tubular Bells, was profiled in the Montreal Gazette. He explained his reluctance to grant interviews by using the same singing simile as the member of Whitesnake:[ref] 1982 April 12, The Montreal Gazette, Oldfield tackles North America, and it takes him by storm by John Griffin, Page B6, Column 1, Montreal, Canada. (Google News archive) link [/ref]

It soon transpires that Oldfield doesn’t generally do interviews in his native England. Not from any persecution complex or feelings of superiority, mind you, but simply because he feels that “talking about music is like singing about football.”

In October 1983 the artist Elvis Costello was interviewed in Musician magazine and was asked about his treatment in the music press. His response used the maxim as part of a general critique of written reviews of music. (Further below is an excerpt from a magazine interview in 2008 in which Costello disclaimed credit for creating the maxim):[ref] 1983 October, Musician magazine, “Elvis Costello: A Man Out of Time Beats the Clock” by Timothy White, Page 52, Column 2,  Number 60. (Verified on paper)[/ref]

Framing all the great music out there only drags down its immediacy. The songs are lyrics, not speeches, and they’re tunes, not paintings. Writing about music is like dancing about architecture—it’s a really stupid thing to want to do.

For several years the quotation above was the earliest known cite for this famous saying. That is one reason the words are strongly associated with Costello. This valuable cite was located by Mark Turner and appeared on the webpage of Alan P. Scott.

Costello’s words were also cited in the Quote Verifier[ref] 2006, The Quote Verifier by Ralph Keyes, Page 256-257, St Martin’s Griffin, New York. (Verified on paper)[/ref] and the Yale Book of Quotations.[ref] 2006, The Yale Book of Quotations edited by Fred R. Shapiro, Page 175, Yale University Press, New Haven. (Verified on paper)[/ref] Top quotation expert Fred R. Shapiro, editor of the Yale Book of Quotations, contributes to the Yale Alumni Magazine. He discusses quotations and proverbs and presents rigorously verified information supplemented with updated research.

On October 9, 1983 an interview with flutist Eugenia Zukerman was published in a Nebraska newspaper. Zukerman who is also a novelist was queried about her experiences writing:[ref] 1983 October 9, Omaha World-Herald, “Eugenia Zukerman: Renaissance Woman” by Rick Ansorge, Section: Entertainment, Omaha, Nebraska. (NewsBank)[/ref]

When asked, she admits that writing about music, as humorist Martin Mull once quipped, is like dancing about architecture.

“It’s very hard,” she said. “It’s easy to write in such a silly way about music. It is its own language. You don’t write about English in Italian . . .”

It is not completely clear to QI from the text if the crediting of Mull is directly based on Zukerman’s remarks or if the interviewer Rick Ansorge is adding the attribution. This fine cite was found by Globe and Mail columnist Doug Saunders and placed on the webpage of Alan P. Scott.

Other musicians were credited with the saying in the 1980s. For example, on June 18, 1985 a story in the Los Angeles Times used the adage as a subtitle for an article and attributed the words to Frank Zappa:[ref] 1985 June 18, Los Angeles Times, Indian Raga is Joined by a Latin Beat by Kenneth Herman, Page SD_D1, Los Angeles, California. (ProQuest)[/ref]

INDIAN RAGA IS JOINED BY A LATIN BEAT

“Talking about music is like dancing about architecture”
—Frank Zappa

The article by Kenneth Herman began with the following:

La Jolla—Encountering music from non-Western cultures lends credibility to the barb Zappa hurled at his less-than-favorable critics. The more engaging a performance of exotic music, the more that description and metaphor tend to diminish its unique character.

The performance artist Laurie Anderson is a popular figure for attribution, and she did use the quotation in a high-profile work titled “Home of the Brave”. In 1986 a review of the piece in the Philadelphia Daily News noted that the memorable saying was flashed on the screen during her concert. (Further below is an excerpt from a radio interview in 2000 during which Anderson disclaimed credit for creating the adage):[ref] 1986 July 18, Philadelphia Daily News, A Sense of Laurie Anderson by Jonathen Takiff, (Review of “Home of the Brave” by Laurie Anderson), Page 43, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. (NewsBank)[/ref]

Anderson’s direction is varied and competent on the whole. But some of the slogans flashed on the rear screen projections (“Talking about music is like dancing about architecture “) rush by so fast that the jokes are easily missed.

In 1990 a variant of the saying occurred in quotation marks and was assigned to the musician Jackson Browne. This variant with the word “singing” is identical to the one used by David Coverdale and Mike Oldfield in 1980 and 1982:[ref] 1990 August 5, The Buffalo News, Loose Lips, Page M22, Buffalo, New York. (NewsBank)[/ref]

Jackson Browne: “As they say in the studios of L.A., talking about music is like singing about football.“

In 1991 an article in The Times of London, England discussed a group of paintings. The author depicted the difficulty of cogently writing about art by employing two similes that follow the template of the family of aphorisms under discussion:[ref] 1991 August 3, The Times, The comfort of a nude in the bathroom; Enthusiasms by Philip Howard, London, England. (Gale Cengage Academic OneFile)[/ref]

Writing about art is like dancing about architecture or knitting about music. It is a category mistake. But here goes.

In 1995 Martin Mull who is also a painter used a variant of the saying in one of his own books; however, he did not attribute the saying to himself. He stated that he heard it as part of a story about a teacher. This may mean that Mull did not originate the saying, or it may mean that he was simply using a rhetorical distancing device. This variant contains the phrase “talking about art”:[ref] 1995, Martin Mull: Paintings, Drawings, and Words by Martin Mull, Page 7, Journey Editions, Boston.  (Google Books snippet; verified on paper) link [/ref]

I once heard a story about a painting instructor who told his class that “talking about art is like dancing about architecture.” Immediately upon hearing this, one of his students leapt to his feet, did an impromptu tap routine, and proudly proclaimed his fancy footwork to be the Flatiron Building.

And so, with little more than this snippet from academia to guide me, I will now undertake the fool’s errand of attempting to describe the methods and madnesses that constitute the process by which I make pictures.

In 2000 the radio program Morning Edition investigated the saying, and the host Susan Stamberg contacted the artist Laurie Anderson. Anderson attributed the adage to the comedian Steve Martin.[ref] 2000 January 14, Morning Edition radio program, “Profile: Letters from listeners. (10:00-11:00 AM)”, Broadcast transcript. (Gale Cengage Academic OneFile)[/ref] During the discussion Stamberg mentions a website; she is referring to the website of Alan P. Scott cited earlier in this post.[ref] Alan P. Scott authored webpage about the origin of the saying “Talking about music is like dancing about architecture” (Accessed 2010 November 7) link [/ref]

SUSAN STAMBERG: Laurie Anderson, are you the one who first said, `Talking about music is like dancing about architecture’?

Ms. LAURIE ANDERSON: Oh, no, no. It’s one of my absolute favorite quotes, and I always try to–that’s so funny that you should ask that. I always try to preface it by Steve Martin. Now, Steve Martin, the comedian, is the one who said that.

STAMBERG: Well, good. Thank you for clarifying it for us, we think. Although, you know, there’s now a Web site on this question. And he lists Steve Martin on there. He says that there are at least three places where it says it was Steve Martin who said it, but he doesn’t believe it. And you’re one of three who names him.

In 2005 the bassist Jesse Keeler of the Canadian musical group “Death From Above 1979” used a variant of the expression containing the word singing during an interview with a Boston Globe journalist. The interviewer was immediately reminded of the most common variant which he attributed to Costello:[ref] 2005 April 29, Boston Globe, “Categorize this duo’s sound as loud” by Renee Graham, Boston, Massachusetts. (Boston Globe online archive) link [/ref]

“I’m using a quote I saw the other day — ‘Talking about music is like singing about football,’ ” Keller says in a recent telephone interview during a tour that will bring them to the Middle East Downstairs on Monday. Or, as Elvis Costello once said, “like dancing about architecture,” although if one could do such an abstract thing, DFA ’79 could provide as appropriate a soundtrack as anyone.

In 2008 Q magazine, a UK music periodical, ran an interview with Elvis Costello in the March special issue with the cover title “50 Years of Great British Music.” Costello denied creating the saying and he credited Martin Mull. Below is an excerpt that begins with a question directed to Costello and follows with his reply:[ref] 2008 March, Q magazine, 50 Years of Great British Music, Elvis Costello Interview, [Interview begins with a picture on page 64 and with text on page 65. The quote is on page 67], Bauer, London, UK. (Verified with photocopies of pages from the article. Special thanks to the librarian at the Cleveland Public Library Periodical Center for locating this text on paper in the March issue when given an inaccurate cite to the February issue.)[/ref]

These days you dabble in music journalism for Vanity Fair magazine. But wasn’t it you who said “writing about music is like dancing about architecture”?

Oh, God! Can I please put in print that I didn’t say that! I may have quoted it, but I think [’7os US actor/singer] Martin Mull coined that. It still follows me around, that one. It’s probably in some book of quotations credited to me.

Contacting a candidate such as Martin Mull or Steve Martin directly to ask questions on this topic would help to resolve the mystery. A posting dated July 17, 2010 on a blog named “The Online Photographer” discussed an attempt to contact Martin Mull and ask him about the saying: Writing about music is like dancing about architecture. The blog author Mike Johnston was interested in the provenance of the quote, so he asked Mull’s art dealer to make an inquiry. Here is an excerpt from the blog:[ref] The Online Photographer website, theonlinephotographer.typepad.com, Blog post “OT: We Hear from Martin Mull” by Mike Johnston. (Accessed 2011 January 27) one link two link [/ref]

So one of the lines I threw into the water was an email to Martin’s art dealer, Carl P. Hammer of Carl Hammer Gallery in Chicago. Carl contacted Martin for me, and Martin confirmed that he is indeed the originator of the famous one-liner.

Note that this datum was sent along a chain: Mull talked to Hammer who talked to Johnston who wrote an item on a blog. The Hammer Gallery has a webpage that features some artwork by Martin Mull.[ref] Carl Hammer Gallery website, hammergallery.com, Martin Mull artwork and biographical information webpage. (Accessed 2011 January 27) one link two link [/ref] The blog post of “The Online Photographer” website was mentioned on the excellent “Quotes Uncovered” blog of Fred Shapiro based on an email sent from the mathematician William C. Waterhouse.[ref] Quotes Uncovered: Freakonomics: New York Times blog, freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com, Blog post “Quotes Uncovered: Dancing About Architecture” by Fred Shapiro. (Accessed 2011 January 27) one link two link [/ref]

A more direct statement from Mull with fewer intermediaries would of course be desirable. Perhaps Mull could provide details about where or when the quote was spoken or written. Mike Johnston deserves kudos for initiating a query and sharing the results.

The artist Grant Snider created an entertaining comic on this theme and depicted the “Postmodernist Pogo” and the “Bauhaus Bounce”. The work was posted on his website “Incidental Comics” in June 2012.

QI will stop adding citations at this point although an almost endless supply is available. Currently, Martin Mull is the leading candidate for crafter of this maxim. Intriguingly, there exists a family of related sayings that follow a template, and these adages begin in 1918 or earlier.

(Thanks to the librarians at Bowling Green State University and the Music Library of the University of Virginia. Special thanks to Mike Kuniavsky for pointing to the December 1979 citation. Many thanks to researcher Bill Mullins for locating the valuable citations dated February 18, 1979 and October 10, 1980.)

Image Notes: Illustration of woman dancing in front of a futuristic architectural structure adjacent to floating stones from kellepics at Pixabay.

Update history: On January 27, 2011 material about Mike Johnston’s attempt to contact Martin Mull was added to this entry. On June 30, 2011 the citation in Arts Magazine dated December 1979 was added to the post. On June 20, 2012 the link to Grant Snider’s comic was added. On October 12, 2018 the citations dated February 18, 1979 and October 10, 1980 were added to the article. Also, the bibliographical citation style was changed to numeric.