Quote Investigator® – Page 161

When a Subject Becomes Totally Obsolete We Make It a Required Course

Peter Drucker? Apocryphal?

Dear Quote Investigator: While perusing a book of quotations categorized as outrageous I saw a remark about college education attributed to the famous business guru Peter Drucker:

When a subject becomes totally obsolete we make it a required course.

I haven’t been able to determine where or when this statement appeared. Is this ascription accurate?

Quote Investigator: In 1969 Peter Drucker published “The Age of Discontinuity: Guidelines to Our Changing Society”. Drucker argued that successful organizations must be capable of change and innovation:[ref] 1969, The Age of Discontinuity: Guidelines to Our Changing Society by Peter F. Drucker, Quote Page 193, Harper & Row, New York. (Verified on paper)[/ref]

An organization, whatever its objectives, must therefore be able to get rid of yesterday’s tasks and thus to free its energies and resources for new and more productive tasks.

Drucker indicated that effective ideas for positive change were often readily available, and yet the resistance to alterations within an organization was often very strong. Drucker employed a version of the saying under investigation when discussing the educational domain. Boldface has been added to excerpts:[ref] 1969, The Age of Discontinuity: Guidelines to Our Changing Society by Peter F. Drucker, Quote Page 193, Harper & Row, New York. (Verified on paper)[/ref]

Rather it is organizational inertia which always pushes for continuing what we are already doing. At least we know—or we think we know—what we are doing. Organization is always in danger of being overwhelmed by yesterday’s tasks and being rendered sterile by them.

If a subject has become obsolete, the university faculty makes a required course out of it—and this “solves the problem” for the time being.

In 1976 “Drucker: The Man Who Invented the Corporate Society” by John J. Tarrant was released, and it included a ten-page appendix filled with remarks by Peter Drucker. The Fall 1976 issue of “The Wharton Magazine” from the University of Pennsylvania reprinted seventeen sayings from the appendix. Here are four examples; the third exactly matches the expression given by the questioner:[ref] 1976 Fall, The Wharton Magazine, Volume 1, Number 1, Bits, Start Page 12, Quote Page 14, Column 1, Published by Trustees of the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. (Verified on microfilm)[/ref][ref] 1976, Drucker: The Man Who Invented the Corporate Society by John J. Tarrant, Section: Appendix, Quote Page 260, Published by Cahners Books, Boston, Massachusetts. (Verified on paper)[/ref]

We know nothing about motivation. All we can do is write books about it.

So much of what we call management consists in making it difficult for people to work.

When a subject becomes totally obsolete we make it a required course.

The schoolmaster since time immemorial has believed that the ass is an organ of learning. The longer you sit, the more you learn.

In 1992 Drucker crafted another phrasing for his idea. The details are given further below.

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Humor Can Be Dissected, as a Frog Can, But the Thing Dies in the Process

Mark Twain? E. B. White? Katharine S. White? André Maurois? Marty Feldman?

Dear Quote Investigator: A cogent simile about the cerebral examination of humor has been attributed to three clever individuals: humorist Mark Twain, children’s author E. B. White, and French author André Maurois. Here are four versions:

Analyzing humor is a bit like dissecting a frog: You learn how it works but you end up with a dead frog.

Studying humor is like dissecting a frog. You might learn a lot about it, but you wind up with a dead frog.

Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but the thing dies in the process.

Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process.

Would you please explore this saying and determine who should receive credit?

Dear Quote Investigator: QI has found no substantive evidence that Mark Twain employed this amphibian simile. Citations show that both E. B. White and André Maurois did use this striking analogy, but the data indicated that E. B. White together with his wife Katharine S. White were the likely originators:

In October 1941 the Whites published an essay in “The Saturday Review of Literature”[ref] 1941 October 18, The Saturday Review of Literature, The Preaching Humorist by E. B. White and Katharine S. White, Start Page 16, Quote Page 16, Column 1, Published by The Saturday Review Company, Inc., New York. (Unz)[/ref] that included the figurative language. The same text was also used in the preface of an influential 1941 collection titled “A Subtreasury of American Humor”[ref] 1941, A Subtreasury of American Humor, Edited by E. B. White and Katharine S. White, Section: Preface, Quote Page xvii, Coward-McCann, New York. (The text in this Preface differed slightly from the text in The Saturday Review of Literature; the Preface had “pure” instead of “purely”) (Verified on paper)[/ref] edited by the Whites. Boldface has been added to excerpts:[ref] 1985, A Teacher’s Treasury of Quotations, Compiled by Bernard E. Farber, Section Humor, Quote Page 139, Column 2 McFarland & Company, Inc., Jefferson, North Carolina. (Verified on paper)[/ref]

Analysts have had their go at humor, and I have read some of this interpretative literature, but without being greatly instructed. Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but the thing dies in the process and the innards are discouraging to any but the purely scientific mind.

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Gentlemen, You May Include Me Out

Samuel Goldwyn? Herbert Fields? June Provines? Sheilah Graham? Alva Johnston? Apocryphal?

Dear Quote Investigator: Movie mogul Samuel Goldwyn was famous for his creative and idiosyncratic use of the English language. Hollywood legend asserts that Goldwyn participated in a complex, protracted, and tense corporate negotiation in the 1930s. But he was unhappy with the final deal, and he expressed disenchantment with these classic words:

Gentlemen, you may include me out.

Would you please explore this statement?

Quote Investigator: When Samuel Goldwyn was profiled in LIFE magazine in 1959 he adamantly denied that he used the expression: “Include me out”. Instead, Goldwyn contended that he uttered the prosaic “Gentlemen, I’m withdrawing from the association.” Yet, the colorful remark has been ascribed to him since the 1930s.

The earliest evidence located by QI did not link the phrase to Goldwyn. The words appeared in a newspaper serialization of a 1933 movie titled “Let’s Fall In Love”. Herbert Fields crafted the story and the screenplay of the romantic musical though it was not clear who penned the serialization which was published in February 1934.[ref] Website: IMDB – Internet Movie Database, Movie title: Let’s Fall in Love (1933), Website description: Searchable database of more than 100 million data items about movies and TV, (Accessed imdb.com on October 12, 2014) link [/ref]

In the following passage, two characters on a movie set were conversing: Rose Forsell was a temperamental star, and Max was a film producer. Forsell believed that she had been insulted, and she was threatening to return to Sweden while Max was attempting to mollify her. The word “Sweden” was spelled “Sveden” to depict Forsell’s accent. Boldface has been added to excerpts:[ref] 1934 February 19, Tyrone Daily Herald, Film: Let’s Fall In Love with Edmund Lowe, Ann Southern, and Miriam Jordan, Serialization by arrangement with Columbia Pictures, Quote Page 5, Column 2, Tyrone, Pennsylvania (NewspaperArchive)[/ref]

Forsell was in a towering rage “Ah! So now he insults me! So now I go back home—to Sveden!”

Max walked up to her. “Wait a minute, Forsell. Don’t mind what Ken says. I didn’t say it. Include me out of it.”

Forsell ignored Max. “And what’s more, I take the first boat back and I don’t never come back.” She turned on her heel and started away.

By 1935 the phrase had moved from the realm of fiction to non-fiction. A popular “Chicago Tribune” columnist named June Provines recounted an incident with unnamed participants immersed in a business parley. The specified location was the “Hotel Sherman” which was probably a reference to the landmark Sherman House Hotel of Chicago:[ref] 1935 March 27, Chicago Tribune, Front Views and Profiles by June Provines, Quote Page 13, Column 4, Chicago, Illinois. (ProQuest)[/ref]

It was a small business meeting at the Hotel Sherman. The men had met to sign an agreement, according to Henrietta Singer, who reports the incident. The proposition was written and read to them and all of them agreed except one. He walked away, ostensibly thinking it over. The rest looked at him inquiringly, awaiting his answer. After a long pause he gave it, “Include me out,” he said.

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This Is On Me

Dorothy Parker? William P. Rothwell? Soaker? Apocryphal? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: The notable wit Dorothy Parker was also known as an imbiber. She would sometimes generously buy a round of drinks for her companions using the phrase:

This is on me.

Once when asked to create an epitaph for her tombstone she selected the expression above because of its dual meanings. One interpretation would remind her friends of convivial occasions. The other interpretation would prosaically specify that the stone stood above her mortal remains. Did Parker really choose this inscription, and is it on her tombstone?

Quote Investigator: QI has examined six different epitaphs that have been attributed to Dorothy Parker. Here is a link to a webpage with pointers to the separate analyses.

Dorothy Parker died in 1967, and books published in 1968 and 1970 asserted that Parker mentioned this expression as a possible humorous epitaph. Detailed citations are given further below. Nevertheless, the words did not appear on the marker above her ashes.

This joke has a long history and instances have been circulating for more than one hundred years. For example, in July 1896 the humor magazine “Life” printed a comical dialog about a grave marker. The term “soaker” referred to a heavy drinker. Boldface has been added to excerpts:[ref] 1896 July 16, Life, Volume 28, Issue 707, (Short untitled item), Quote Page 572, Column 3, Published by Life Office, New York. (ProQuest)[/ref]

BRIGGS. That was rather an appropriate inscription they put on Soaker’s tombstone.
GRIGGS: What was it?
“‘This is on me.'”

Dorothy Parker was born in 1893; therefore, barring preternatural precocity, she did not craft this quip though she may have employed it.

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Things Turn Out Best for Folks Who Make the Best of the Way Things Turn Out

Titus Livius? John Wooden? Art Linkletter? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: Everyone experiences some adversity, and that may help to explain the popularity of the following adage:

Things turn out best for the people who make the best out of the way things turn out.

These words have been attributed to at least three people: Roman historian Titus Livius, basketball coach John Wooden, and television personality Art Linkletter. Who do you think should receive credit?

Quote Investigator: In March 1961 an instance of this aphorism was published in the humor column of two community newspapers in Illinois. A person named “PF Pete” had collected the expression from an unnamed “Ad Boy”:[ref] 1961 March 26, The Park Forest Star: Serving America’s Model Community, The Outlet, Quote Page 6, Column 8, Park Forest, Illinois. (NewspaperArchive)[/ref][ref] 1961 March 26, Homewood-Flossmoor Star: Your Community Newspaper, The Outlet, Quote Page 6, Column 8, Chicago, Illinois. (NewspaperArchive)[/ref]

Ad Boy:
Things turn out for the best for those who make the best out of the way things turn out.
PF Pete

The statement was constructed using a rhetorical technique called antimetabole. Successive phrases were repeated, but some key words were permuted. In this case, the words: “things”, “turn”, “out”, and “best” were repeated and reordered:

Part 1: Things turn out for the best for those who
Part 2: make the best out of the way things turn out.

In May 1961 the saying was printed in an advertisement for a bank published in a Brookshire, Texas newspaper. The words were ascribed to “Uncle Joe”:[ref] 1961 May 4, The Brookshire Times, (Advertisement for Farmers State Bank, Brookshire, Texas), Quote Page 8, Column 4, Brookshire, Texas. (Newspapers_com)[/ref]

“Things turn out for the best,” Uncle Joe remarked, “for those who make the best out of the way things turn out.”

In the following years, close variants of the adage were published in numerous newspapers. The ascription was omitted or employed non-specific identifiers such as “Ad Boy” or “Uncle Joe”. No individual was credited, and QI believes the statement should be labeled anonymous.

In 1973 prominent UCLA basketball coach John Wooden included the aphorism in a book he co-authored. Wooden did not claim coinage, nor did he provide an ascription. In 1979 entertainer Art Linkletter included the remark in a book he published and credited Wooden. Precise citations for Wooden and Linkletter are given further below. QI has found no substantive support for crediting the dictum to Titus Livius; that linkage appeared relatively recently.

Thanks to top researcher Barry Popik who also examined this topic.

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The Dirtiest Book in All the World Is the Expurgated Book

Walt Whitman? Horace Traubel? Morris L. Ernst? Apocryphal?

Dear Quote Investigator: Walt Whitman’s landmark poetry collection “Leaves of Grass” was shocking to some of his contemporaries, and he was told by publishers, critics, and attorneys that his work required expurgation. Whitman consented to this censorship initially, but he became increasingly unhappy and angry with this interference over time. The following statement has been attributed to Whitman:

Damn all expurgated books, the dirtiest book of all is the expurgated book.

I have not been able to determine where or when Whitman wrote or said these words. Would you please help me?

Quote Investigator: There is good evidence that Walt Whitman made a statement very similar to the one above. Whitman died in 1892, and the earliest citation located by QI was published in 1906 by Horace Traubel who was a friend of the famous poet and his literary executor. Traubel published a volume about his experiences visiting Whitman a few years before the poet’s death titled “With Walt Whitman in Camden (March 28 — July 14, 1888)”. The book format was a series of dated journal entries, and the entry of Wednesday, May 9, 1888 recounted Whitman’s vivid remark about censorship. Boldface has been added to excerpts:[ref] 1906, With Walt Whitman in Camden (March 28 — July 14, 1888), by Horace Traubel, Journal Date: May 9, 1888, Quote Page 124, Published by Small, Maynard & Company, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]

Damn the expurgated books! I say damn ’em! The dirtiest book in all the world is the expurgated book. Rossetti expurgated—avowed it in his preface: a sort of nod to Mrs. Grundy…

The phrasing reported by Traubel differed somewhat from the most common modern quotation, but QI hypothesizes that the modern statement was derived from this journal entry. The name “Rossetti” in the remark referred to William Rossetti who published an early expurgated edition of “Leaves of Grass”. The name “Mrs. Grundy” referred to an archetypal figure embodying prudish, priggish, and narrow-minded attitudes.

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Wherever She Went, Including Here, It Was Against Her Better Judgment

Dorothy Parker? Apocryphal?

Dear Quote Investigator: The notable wit Dorothy Parker was once asked to create an epitaph for her tombstone. Apparently, she crafted several different candidates for inscription over the years. I am interested in the following:

Wherever she went, including here, it was against her better judgment.

Did the coruscating Algonquin Round Table member compose this statement?

Quote Investigator: QI has examined several other epitaphs that have been attributed to Dorothy Parker. Here is a link to the webpage with pointers to the separate analyses.

The expression given by the questioner above was published in a short story written by Parker that was published in “The New Yorker” magazine in 1929. Parker included herself as a character within her own story, and the Parker character recommended the inscription for her own gravestone. At the beginning of the tale, the character was expressing regret about her decision to attend a dinner party. Boldface has been added to excerpts:[ref] 1929 October 19, The New Yorker, But the One on the Right by Dorothy Parker, Start Page 25, Quote Page 25, The F-R. Publishing Corporation, New York. (Verified on microfilm)[/ref]

Oh, I should never have come, never. I’m here against my better judgment. Friday, at eight-thirty, Mrs. Parker vs. her better judgment, to a decision. That would be a good thing for them to cut on my tombstone: Wherever she went, including here, it was against her better judgment. This is a fine time of the evening to be thinking about tombstones.

Parker’s tone was humorous, and the statement was not inscribed on her actual grave marker.

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Quote Origin: Whatever You Are, Try To Be a Good One

Abraham Lincoln? William Makepeace Thackeray? Laurence Hutton? Apocryphal? Anonymous?

Question for Quote Investigator: Selecting a profession can be quite difficult, and changing your initial choice may be necessary. Yet, you should always strive for excellence. The following inspirational words are heartening:

Whatever you are, be a good one.

The phrase is usually attributed to Abraham Lincoln, but it sounds modern to my ear. Books about happiness, coaching, and career choice have all included the saying. Sadly, misattributions to Lincoln are commonplace. What do you think?

Reply from Quote Investigator: QI has found no substantive evidence that Abraham Lincoln made this remark. Lincoln died in 1865, and the earliest attribution to Lincoln was printed in a compendium of quotations in 1946, a very late date.

Interestingly, at the turn of the previous century the saying was firmly attached to another famous individual, the English novelist William Makepeace Thackeray who died in 1863. The earliest instance of the saying located by QI was published in a memoir in 1897 by Laurence Hutton who was a prominent magazine editor, critic, and essayist. The memoir was serialized in “St. Nicholas: An Illustrated Magazine for Young Folks”.

Hutton described a crucial incident from his childhood in the 1850s when he met William Makepeace Thackeray who asked him about his aspirations. Hutton was uncertain about his goals in life, but he replied that he wanted to be a farmer. Thackeray responded to Hutton with a version of the saying which has now become popular. Hutton’s memoir was written in the third person, and he referred to himself as “The Boy”. Boldface has been added to excerpts:¹

Mr. Thackeray took The Boy between his knees, and asked his name, and what he intended to be when he grew up. He replied, “A farmer, sir.” Why, he cannot imagine, for he never had the slightest inclination toward a farmer’s life. And then Mr. Thackeray put his gentle hand upon The Boy’s little red head, and said: “Whatever you are, try to be a good one.”

If there is any virtue in the laying-on of hands The Boy can only hope that a little of it has descended upon him. And whatever The Boy is, he has tried, for Thackeray’s sake, “to be a good one!”

By 1904 the above version of the saying was shortened to “Whatever you are, be a good one” and assigned to Thackeray. Both versions were disseminated in the following decades.

QI believes that Laurence Hutton’s memoir was the most likely origin of the statement, and Hutton ascribed the words to William Makepeace Thackeray, but he was writing many years after the incident occurred; hence, uncertainty was inherent. On the other hand, the expression deeply impressed Hutton and influenced his life, so the phrasing he reported might have been accurate.

Here are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Just Close Your Eyes and Think of England

Queen Victoria? Lucy Baldwin? Pierre Daninos? Lady Hillingham? Lady Hillingdon? Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy? Apocryphal?

Dear Quote Investigator: There is a well-known though unreliable anecdote about the guidance offered to brides in the repressive Victorian era. Supposedly, Queen Victoria was asked by one of her newly married daughters about possible carnal activities in the marriage bed. Here are five versions of the response:

Just close your eyes and think of England.
Shut your eyes tight and think of England.
Lie still and think of the Empire.
Lie back and think of the Empire.
Lie still and think of a new way to trim a hat.

I doubt that this story is accurate. Sometimes one of the statements above is presented by a historian as archetypal advice in the 1800s without a specific attribution. Nowadays, these expressions are employed satirically. Would you please explore this topic?

Quote Investigator: There is no substantive evidence that Queen Victoria ever made a statement of this type. QI and several other researchers have attempted to trace expressions in this family and found that they started to appear in print in the 1900s and not the 1800s. A book published in 1972 asserted that the first statement was written in a personal journal in 1912, but no researcher has located this journal, and apparently the tale was apocryphal.

The earliest relevant evidence known to QI was published by an influential American newspaper columnist in 1943.[ref] 1943 May 18, Washington Post, Broadway Gazette by Leonard Lyons, Quote Page 10, Column 5, Washington, D.C. (ProQuest)[/ref] Intriguingly, the topic was osculation and not conjugation, and the advice-giver was Lucy Baldwin who was the wife of the former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Boldface has been added to excerpts:[ref] 1943 May 21, San Francisco Chronicle, Lyon’s Den: Churchill Learned a Vital Lesson from U.S. Magician by Leonard Lyons, Quote Page 24, Column 1, San Francisco, California. (GenealogyBank)[/ref]

Stanley Baldwin’s son tells this story of the day his sister went out with a young man who wanted to marry her. She asked her mother for advice, in case the young man should want to kiss her . . . “Do what I did,” said her mother, reminiscing of the beginning of her romance with the man who was to become Prime Minister, “Just close your eyes and think of England.”

The ellipsis above was present in the original text. This citation was included in two key reference works from Yale University Press: “The Yale Book of Quotations”[ref] 2006, The Yale Book of Quotations by Fred R. Shapiro, Section Alice Hillingdon, Quote Page 359, Yale University Press, New Haven. (Verified on paper) [/ref] and “The Dictionary of Modern Proverbs”.[ref] 2012, The Dictionary of Modern Proverbs, Compiled by Charles Clay Doyle, Wolfgang Mieder, and Fred R. Shapiro, Quote Page 70, Yale University Press, New Haven. (Verified on paper) [/ref]

It is conceivable that this was a bowdlerized version of a more ribald tale, but QI has not yet located supporting evidence for that hypothesis. An alternative conjecture would hold that the carnal element of this story was modified and amplified over time.

In 1954 “Les Carnets du Major Thompson” was published in French by Pierre Daninos. The following year an English translation titled “The Notebooks of Major Thompson: An Englishman Discovers France & the French” was released in the U.S. The character portrayals in the volume emphasized humor. The French author Daninos asserted that the English character Ursula had been prepared “for marriage in an entirely Victorian spirit”. The expression in the following passage was identical to the one used in the previous citation. Yet, the activity shifted from kissing to intimate coupling:[ref] 1955, The Notebooks of Major Thompson: An Englishman Discovers France & the French by Pierre Daninos, Translated by Robin Farn, Chapter 8: Martine and Ursula, Quote Page 105, Alfred A. Knopf, New York. (Originally published in France as Les Carnets du Major Thompson by Librairie Hachette in 1954) (Verified on paper)[/ref]

The day before she left home, Lady Plunkwell had delivered her final advice: “I know, my dear, it’s disgusting. But do as I did with Edward: just close your eyes and think of England!” Like her mother and her mother’s mother before her, Ursula closed her eyes. She thought of the future of England.

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Even If You Win the Rat Race, You’re Still a Rat

Lily Tomlin? Jackie Gleason? Bill Cunningham? William Sloane Coffin? Russell Baker? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: There is a popular quip about the competitive daily grind of the working world. Here are two versions:

1) Even if you win the rat race, you’re still a rat
2) So you’ve won the rat race. You’re still a rat.

The influential comedian Lily Tomlin employed a version of this joke. Would you please explore its origin?

Quote Investigator: There is good evidence that Lily Tomlin used this gag by the 1970s, and a citation is given further below. Yet, the earliest appearance known to QI occurred in a book about the life of another famous comedian.

In 1956 “The Golden Ham: A Candid Biography of Jackie Gleason” by Jim Bishop was published. Gleason wrote a letter to his estranged wife Genevieve that was reprinted in the volume. He used a version of the witticism particularized to the television broadcasting industry. Boldface has been added to excerpts:[ref] 1956, The Golden Ham: A Candid Biography of Jackie Gleason by Jim Bishop, (Undated letter from Jackie Gleason to Gen (Genevieve, estranged wife Gleason)), Quote Page 258, Published by Simon and Schuster, New York. (Verified with scans)[/ref]

Television is a rat race, and remember this, even if you win you are still a rat.

In August 1956 a sports columnist named Bill Cunningham writing in “The Boston Herald” employed an instance of the joke, but he did not claim coinage; instead, he credited an anonymous “fellow”. The topic of the column was the perennial baseball conflict between the Boston Red Sox and the New York Yankees:[ref] 1956 August 11, Boston Herald, Section: Sports, Bill Taking Off for Conventions: Leaves Sox, But He Saw Them Hit Second Place by Bill Cunningham, Quote Page 5, Column 1, Boston, Massachusetts. (GenealogyBank)[/ref]

It’s still a job lot pitching staff—like the fellow said, “You can win the rat race, but you’re still a rat”—but, oooooh, that Yankee hitting, especially in the clutch!

Thanks to top researcher Barry Popik who located the two citations above and other valuable citations.[ref] Website: The Big Apple, Article title: “The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win you’re still a rat”, Date on website: November 05, 2012, Website description: Etymological dictionary with more than 10,000 entries. (Accessed barrypopik.com on October 1, 2014) link [/ref]

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