M. Frida Hartley? William Ralph Inge? Jan Bryant Bartell? Anonymous?
“Apes in the Orange Grove” by Henri Rousseau in 1910
Question for Quote Investigator: A verse condemning cruelty toward animals begins with the following two lines:
From beasts we scorn as soulless,
In forest, field and den
This verse has been attributed to British social activist M. Frida Hartley and influential Anglican priest William Inge. I have not yet found a definitive citation. Would you please explore this topic?
Reply from Quote Investigator: The earliest match located by QI appeared in “The Spectator” magazine of London in 1928 within the literary supplement section. M. Frida Hartley published a poem titled “Hymn of Pity for Broken Birds and Beasts” which was composed of five verses of eight lines each. The second verse contained the following lines. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
For creatures of Thy making
Old laws assigned for use,
New freedom stands proclaiming
Their rights and our abuse: From beasts we scorn as soulless, In forest, field and den, The cry goes up to witness The soullessness of men.
QI believes that M. Frida Hartley deserves credit for the quotation under examination. William Inge incorrectly received credit many years later.
Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.
Ursula K. Le Guin? Robin W. Winks? Julian F. Fleron? Apocryphal?
Question for Quote Investigator: Critics of childrearing practices complain that the imagination and creativity of children is carelessly discouraged. This notion has been encapsulated with the following adage:
The creative adult is a child who has survived.
The prominent science fiction and fantasy writer Ursula K. Le Guin has received credit for this saying; however, she has adamantly disclaimed the statement. Would you please explore this topic?
Reply from Quote Investigator: The earliest match located by QI appeared in the 1983 tourist book “An American’s Guide To Britain” by Robin W. Winks. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
An excellent writer of science fiction, Ursula LeGuin, has written that the creative adult is a child who has survived. In this sense of the word, this book is meant to appeal to the child in most of us — for when we are truly an adult, we will also be dead.
Winks credited Le Guin, but he did not use quotation marks. Thus, the statement may have reflected his attempt to paraphrase Le Guin. Currently, Winks is the leading candidate for creator of the saying although the coinage was inadvertent. Also, it remains possible that Winks was simply repeating the misquotation from a previous writer.
QI conjectures that the statement was derived from an imprecise reading of a 1974 essay by Ursula Le Guin titled “Why Are Americans Afraid of Dragons?” published in “PNLA Quarterly”. Le Guin defended the imagination employed in “fairy-tale, legend, fantasy, science fiction, and the rest of the lunatic fringe”. She praised children’s librarians because they also welcomed this type of fiction:2
They believe that maturity is not an outgrowing, but a growing up; that an adult is not a dead child, but a child who survived. They believe that all the best faculties of a mature human being exist in the child, and that if these faculties are encouraged in youth they will act well and wisely in the adult, but if they are repressed and denied in the child they will stunt and cripple the adult personality.
And finally they believe that one of the most deeply human, and humane, of these faculties is the power of imagination; so that it is our pleasant duty, as librarians, or teachers, or parents, or writers, or simply as grownups, to encourage that faculty of imagination in our children . . .
The quotation under examination was not present in the passage above, but an inattentive reader who was attempting to condense and simplify Le Guin’s words might have generated the saying.
Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.
Marcus Tullius Cicero? G. K. Chesterton? Henry Ward Beecher? Mrs. Ashton Yates? John Lubbock? William Forsyth? William Lucas Collins? Apocryphal?
Fresco fragment showing young Cicero reading
Question for Quote Investigator: The most attractive room in a large house is the library. Here are three versions of a germane adage:
(1) A house without books is like a body without a soul.
(2) Without books, a house is but a body without a soul.
(3) A room without books is like a body without a soul.
This saying has been attributed to the ancient Roman statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero and to prominent English author G. K. Chesterton. I have become skeptical because I haven’t been able to find a good citation. Would you please help me
Reply from Quote Investigator:QI has found no evidence that Cicero crafted this adage; however, he did write something pertinent in a letter to Titus Pomponius Atticus. Here is the original Latin followed by a translation from Eric Otto Winstedt of Magdalen College, Oxford. Tyrannio was Cicero’s servant librarian. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
Postea vero quam Tyrannio mihi libros disposuit, mens addita videtur meis aedibus. Qua quidem in re mirifica opera Dionysi et Menophili tui fuit. Nihil venustius quam illa tua pegmata, postquam mi sillybis libros illustrarunt.
Since Tyrannio has arranged my books, the house seems to have acquired a soul: and your Dionysius and Menophilus were of extraordinary service. Nothing could be more charming than those bookcases of yours now that the books are adorned with title-slips.
QI conjectures that the adage and attribution to Cicero were inattentively derived from the passage above. The ascription to G. K. Chesterton appeared in the 21st century and is unsupported.
Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.
Maya Angelou? Celia Caroline Cole? Friedrich Nietzsche? George Martin? Michael Frisby? Anonymous?
Painting titled “Three Dancers in an Exercise Hall” by Edgar Degas circa 1880
Question for Quote Investigator: The Earth has natural rhythms such as the high and low tides of the ocean. The sky also has rhythms such as the oscillating electromagnetic radiation from a pulsar. Here is a saying on this theme:
Everything in the universe has a rhythm; everything dances.
These words have been attributed to the prominent U.S. writer Maya Angelou. I have been unable to find a citation. Would you please help me?
Reply from Quote Investigator: The notion that everything in the universe is dancing has a long history. For example, Friedrich Nietzsche applied this metaphor in his opus “Thus Spake Zarathustra: A Book for All and None” which was composed in the 1880s. Nietzsche’s character Zarathustra contemplated the universe in the following passage. Thomas Common performed the translation from German. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
That thou art to me a dancing-floor for divine chances, that thou art to me a table of the Gods, for divine dice and dice-players!
A strong match for the first statement of the inquiry occurred in 1922 in “The Delineator” journal of New York within an article by Celia Caroline Cole:2
Everything in the universe has rhythm: The rising and the setting of the sun, the ebb and flow of the sea, the coming of the stars, the seasons. They go out in order to come in—rhythmical, measured order.
Maya Angelou employed the phrase “everything in the universe has a rhythm” during an interview in 1973, and she stated that “everything dances” in 1974. Thus, Angelou used both statements, but QI has not yet found direct evidence that she employed them contiguously.
Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.
Mark Twain? Humphry Davy? Robert G. Ingersoll? Cato the Elder? Hugh M‘Neile? Cassius Marcellus Clay? Thomas Fuller?
Public domain illustration of “The Fidelity Medallion”
Question for Quote Investigator: A person of great merit may not receive any recognition while an unworthy person may receive numerous accolades. This perverse disconnection has inspired the following ethical stance:
It is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them.
This notion has been attributed to famous U.S. humorist Mark Twain, prominent U.S. orator Robert G. Ingersoll, and noteworthy British chemist Humphry Davy. Would you please explore this topic?
Reply from Quote Investigator: The earliest match known to QI occurred in the writings of electrochemist Sir Humphry Davy who died in 1829. His brother John Davy published “Memoirs of the Life of Sir Humphry Davy” in 1836. This work contained excerpts from letters and notes penned by Humphry. Here were three items from him. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
“It is better to deserve honours and not to have them, than to have them and not deserve them.”
“Pride makes men entertaining only to themselves: vanity makes them entertaining to others.”
“Science, unlike literature, is independent of taste or caprice.”
Based on current evidence, Humphry Davy authored this quotation. Robert G. Ingersoll employed an instance during a speech on 1899, and Mark Twain wrote it in one of his notebooks in 1902 after it was already in circulation.
Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.
Mary Shelley? Mary Wollstonecraft? Wednesday Addams? Epictetus? George Stanhope? Gustav Friedrich Wiggers?
Eve selecting an apple from Jeff Jacobs at Pixabay
Question for Quote Investigator: Usually, a person does not perform an evil act simply because it is evil. Instead, the motivation is more complex. The person is pursuing their own deeply flawed vision of good. Often, the person is pursuing their own happiness or pleasure.
This notion has been attributed to English philosopher Mary Wollstonecraft who was a prominent advocate of women’s rights. It has also been attributed to English writer Mary Shelley who authored the famous novel “Frankenstein”. An instance of this saying occurred in the recent Netflix streaming series “Wednesday” which centers on the character Wednesday Addams. Would you please help me to find a citation which presents the precise phasing of this quotation.
Reply from Quote Investigator: In 1790 Mary Wollstonecraft published “A Vindication of the Rights of Men” which included the following passage. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
It may be confidently asserted that no man chooses evil, because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks. And the desire of rectifying these mistakes, is the noble ambition of an enlightened understanding, the impulse of feelings that Philosophy invigorates.
Thus, Mary Wollstonecraft deserves credit for this quotation although the theme can be traced back to the ancient Greek philosopher Epictetus.
The attribution to Mary Shelley was probably caused by a naming confusion. Mary Shelley was the daughter of Mary Wollstonecraft and political philosopher William Godwin. Her birth name was Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin. She became Mary Shelley when she married poet Percy Bysshe Shelley.
Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.
Epictetus was a Greek Stoic philosopher who died circa 135 AD. Clergyman George Stanhope published in 1700 a translation of Epictetus containing the following germane passage:2
And indeed, all Evil whatsoever, is in some Sense an involuntary Misfortune to the Soul; for the Soul never chooses Evil, considered as Evil, but under the Disguise and Pretence of some Good; as sometimes Riches, sometimes Sensual Enjoyments, or Honours, or Preferments and Greatness.
In 1731 “The Gentleman’s Magazine” printed a thematic match:3
Man is a sensible being, naturally seeks his own happiness, nor can be divested of self-love. No man chooses evil as evil.
In 1790 Mary Wollstonecraft published “A Vindication of the Rights of Men” which included the quotation as mentioned previously:
It may be confidently asserted that no man chooses evil, because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks.
In 1810 a book review published in “The Critical Review” of London contained a different version of this saying:4
When a man chooses evil, he does not choose it as evil. It is mistaken good. All vice, therefore, may be referred to ignorance; and hence we ought to be very mild and merciful in scrutinizing the conduct of our fellow creatures; and in censuring their deviations from the path of rectitude.
In 1834 an essay in “The Monthly Repository” of London contained another version of the saying:5
Protagoras, and all others who were present, assented, and it was agreed that doing evil always arose from ignorance, and doing well from knowledge.
Since, then, no one chooses evil, knowing it to be evil , but mistakingly supposing it to be good, no one, who is compelled to choose between two evils, will knowingly choose the greatest.
In 1840 a work by German theologian Gustav Friedrich Wiggers was translated by Ralph Emerson and published under the title “An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism”. The following appeared in the book:6
Thus the evil may be involuntary, as no one chooses evil merely as evil; but drawn away by the pleasure that surrounds it, supposing it good, he decides to embrace it.
The 1980 edition of “Bartlett’s Familiar Quotations” contained the following entry:7
[Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin] 1759–1797 No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks. A Vindication of the Rights of Men [1790]
In 2009 the syndicated newspaper column “Aces On Bridge” employed the following epigraph with an ascription to Mary Shelley:8
“No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks.” — Mary Shelley
In 2013 the quotation appeared in “Quotations for the Fast Lane” compiled by Richard W. Pound:9
No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks. Mary Shelley
In conclusion, Mary Wollstonecraft should receive credit for this quotation. The ancient Greek philosopher Epictetus made a similar point. The attribution to Mary Shelley is unsupported.
Image Notes: Illustration of Eve selecting an apple with a serpent nearby from jeffjacobs1990 at Pixabay. Image has been cropped and resized.
Acknowledgement: Great thanks to Ibon Basterrika whose inquiry led QI to formulate this question and perform this exploration. Basterrika knew that Mary Wollstonecraft deserved credit and not Mary Shelley.
Update History: On March 18, 2024 the format of the bibliographical notes was updated. Also, the full article was placed on this website.
1790, A Vindication of the Rights of Men, in a letter to the Right Honourable Edmund Burke by Mary Wollstonecraft, The Second Edition, Quote Page 136, Printed for J. Johnson, London. (Google Books Full View) link↩︎
1700, Epictetus His Morals: With Simplicius His Comment by Epictetus, Translated from the Greek by George Stanhope, Second Edition, Chapter 13, Quote Page 115, Printed for Richard Sare, London. (Google Books Full View) link↩︎
1731 July, The Gentleman’s Magazine, Weekly Essays in July 1731, Universal Spectator on Saturday, July 17, Quote Page 295, Printed by F. Jefferies, London. (Google Books Full View) link↩︎
1810 September, The Critical Review: Or, Annals of Literature, Volume 21, Number 1, Book review of W. Burdon’s “Materials for Thinking”, Start Page 69, Quote Page 73, Printed for J. Mawman, London. (Google Books Full View) link↩︎
1834 March, The Monthly Repository, Notes on Some of the More Popular Dialogues of Plato, №1: The Protagoras by A., Start Page 203, Quote Page 210, Charles Fox, London. (Google Books Full View) link↩︎
1840, An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism from the Original Sources by G. F. Wiggers (Gustav Friedrich Wiggers), Translated from the German by Ralph Emerson, Chapter 22, Quote Page 333, Published by Gould, Newman & Saxton, Andover, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View) link↩︎
1980, Familiar Quotations by John Bartlett, Edited by Emily Morison Beck, Fifteenth and 125th Anniversary Edition, Entry: Mary Wollstonecraft, Quote Page 414, Column 1, Published by Little, Brown and Company, Boston, Massachusetts. (Verified with scans) ↩︎
2009 August 11, The Sacramento Bee, Aces On Bridge (Syndicated), Quote Page D2, Column 1, Sacramento, California. (Newspapers_com) ↩︎
2013, Quotations for the Fast Lane, Compiled by Richard W. Pound, Topic: Evil, Quote Page 174, McGill-Queen’s University Press, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. (Google Books Preview; Amazon Look Inside) ↩︎
Robert Frost? Mark Twain? Margaret Pepperdene? Apocryphal?
Public domain illustration of two frogs by F. Strothman
Question for Quote Investigator: Prominent U.S. poet Robert Frost has received credit for a brilliantly vivid metaphor describing two types of teachers. One type fills students with so much quail shot they cannot move. The other type simply prods students a little, and they jump to the skies.
Is this figurative language really from the pen of Robert Frost? Would you please help me to find a citation with the correct phrasing?
Reply from Quote Investigator: There is substantive evidence that Robert Frost employed this metaphor which is based on an incident in an 1865 short story by Mark Twain titled “The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County”.
Twain’s tale centers on Jim Smiley who catches a frog which he names Dan’l Webster. Smiley trains the frog to jump a long distance, and he brags that his frog can “outjump any frog in Calaveras county”. A stranger agrees to gamble on a jumping contest between Dan’l Webster and another frog. The stranger sabotages Dan’l Webster by surreptitiously feeding it quail shot so that it cannot jump. The stranger wins the bet and escapes before the deceit is uncovered.
Robert Frost was both a teacher and a poet. He once told his class to read “The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County”. A 1963 article in the “Agnes Scott Newsletter” described the reaction of Frost’s students. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
“Mr. Frost said that when his class assembled the next day they were somewhat mystified; they didn’t understand what this story had to do with a course in education. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘I told them that this story was about teachers. There are two kinds of teachers: the kind that fill you with so much quail shot that you can’t move, and the kind that just give you a little prod behind and you jump to the skies.’”
This anecdote about Frost was reported by Margaret Pepperdene who was an Associate Professor of English at Agnes Scott College in Decatur, Georgia. She later became a Professor of English and director of the college’s Writers’ Festival.2 Pepperdene heard the tale from Frost when she discussed teaching with him at his home on the Noble Farm in Ripton, Vermont.
Frost died on January 29, 1963, and the anecdote appeared in an article titled “Memories of Robert Frost Abound at Agnes Scott” in the April 1963 issue of “Agnes Scott Newsletter”.
Below are three additional selected citations in chronological order.
Coco Chanel? Gracie Allen? Joan Rivers? The McGuire Sisters? Polly Bergen? Nancy Abraham? Maggie Daly? Helen Hennessy? John Robert Powers? Beatrice Molinsky? George Burns? Anonymous?
Public domain picture of jewelry circa A.D. 250–400
Question for Quote Investigator: Fashion sense is always subjective, but many agree that wearing too much jewelry looks gaudy and ostentatious. The style maven Coco Chanel supposedly gave the following advice about adornments. Here are two versions
(1) Always remove one piece of jewelry before you go out.
(2) Before you leave the house, look at yourself in the mirror and take one thing off.
Thus, this difficult choice requires second-guessing yourself. This adage has also been attributed to two comedians: Gracie Allen and Joan Rivers. I have been unable to find solid evidence, and I am skeptical of these attributions. Would you please explore this saying’s provenance?
Reply from Quote Investigator: This saying is difficult to trace because it can be expressed in many ways. The earliest match known to QI appeared in “The American University Eagle” newspaper of Washington D.C. in 1949 which reprinted fashion advice from the “Daily Lass-o” of the Texas State College for Women. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
“Lastly, never wear too much jewelry, no matter how well it all matches. An old policy, but still a very good one, is after you have completely finished dressing, step away from the mirror and get a good full length view of yourself, then remove one piece of jewelry and you will look much smarter.”
The phrase “old policy” signaled that this advice was a preexisting adage. The originator remains anonymous. Several famous people have referenced this saying, but QI has found no substantive support for the ascription to Coco Chanel. Comedian George Burns stated that his wife, Gracie Allen, adhered to the adage. Also, Joan Rivers referred to the saying, but she attributed it to her mother.
Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.
Mark Twain? Robert H. Hirst? Susy Clemens? Apocryphal?
Question for Quote Investigator: Several books about cats contain a quotation credited to humorist Mark Twain stating that Twain was a friend and comrade to people who love cats. I am skeptical of this attribution, and I haven’t seen a citation. Would you please explore this topic?
Reply from Quote Investigator: In 2009 Robert H. Hirst who is the general editor of the scholarly Mark Twain Project edited a book titled “Who is Mark Twain?” containing a collection of sketches and essays by Twain that were unpublished (or rarely published) previously.
A vignette dated September 1887 and titled “An Incident” described a meeting between Twain and a young man who was carrying a gun. Twain initially feared the youth was a “lunatic out gunning for men”. Next, he worried that a group of “four sorry-looking cats” were the target. But Twain learned that the youth was hoping to provide a meal for the cats. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:1
Aha!—so far from being a madman, he was saner, you see, than the average of our race; for he had a warm spot in him for cats. When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction.
Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.
Mark Twain? George Carlin? Yul Brynner? Jean Cocteau? Bob Gray? Dilbert? Scott Adams? Anonymous?
Illustration of a jester’s hat from OpenClipart-Vectors
Question for Quote Investigator: Logic and careful reasoning are the ingredients of a constructive argument. Acrimony and irrationality are the elements of a fruitless argument. The celebrated humorist Mark Twain supposedly formulated the following cautionary remark. Here are two versions:
(1) Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
(2) Never argue with stupid people because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Comedian George Carlin has also received credit. I am skeptical of both of these attributions, and I have never seen solid citations. Would you please examine this saying?
Reply from Quote Investigator: QI has been unable to find substantive evidence crediting this remark to Mark Twain or George Carlin. It does not appear on the Twain Quotes website edited by Barbara Schmidt,1 nor does it appear in the large compilation “Mark Twain at Your Fingertips” edited by Caroline Thomas Harnsberger.2
Scholar Matt Seybold of Elmira College and the Center for Mark Twain Studies examined this saying and concluded that “Mark Twain never said these words, nor anything resembling them”.3 George Carlin received credit many years after the quip was circulating.
QI conjectures that the quotation evolved over time. The Bible contains a thematically related passage in Proverbs 26:4. Here is the text from the New International Version. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
In 1878 April “The Daily Picayune” of New Orleans, Louisiana printed an adage depicting the underlying idea without attribution:5
To argue with a fool is to make him your equal.
In May 1878 “The Rochester Evening Express” of Rochester, New York printed another precursor while acknowledging an Ohio source:6
Don’t argue with a fool, or the listener will say there is a pair of you.—Cincinnati Breakfast Table.
In 1956 an Associated Press columnist spoke with the popular actor Yul Brynner who attributed a partially matching statement to prominent French artist Jean Cocteau:7
Yul said the greatest advice he ever received in life was given by the French writer Jean Cocteau, who told him:
“Never associate with idiots on their own level, because, being an intelligent man, you’ll try to deal with them on their level—and on their level they’ll beat you every time.”
The above statement used the word “associate” instead of “argue”, but within a few years the remark evolved toward the modern expression. In 1958 a columnist in “The Daily Tar Heel” of Chapel Hill, North Carolina used the word “argue”. The columnist also omitted Brynner’s name and attributed the words directly to Cocteau:8
As Jean Cocteau once said, “Never argue with an idiot, because being an intelligent man, you will argue with them on their level, and, on their level, they’ll beat you every time.”
In 1978 “The Memphis Press-Scimitar” of Tennessee printed an instance with a different attribution:9
Never associate with idiots on their own level because, being an intelligent person, you will try to deal with them on their level, and on their level they will beat you every time. — Bob Gray, Northeast Memphis Optimes
The expression continued to circulate in 1987 when it appeared in “The Kaplan Herald” of Louisiana. The connection to Cocteau was also recalled:10
IT’S TRUE — Never associate with idiots on their own level because, being an intelligent man, you’ll try to deal with them on their level — and on their level they’ll beat you every time. -JEAN COCTEAU
In 1993 an instance using the phrase “win with experience” appeared in the Usenet newsgroup comp.sys.cbm. The ellipsis occurred in the original text. The word “never” or “don’t” was omitted. No attribution was specified:11
… Argue with idiots, they drag you to their level & win with experience.
In March 1997 an instance using the phrase “beat you with experience” appeared in a message posted to the Usenet newsgroup aus.computers.mac. No attribution was given:12
Never Argue with idiots, They drag you down to their level, And beat you with experience!
In April 1997 a message posted to newsgroup alt.games.vga-planets suggested that the guidance had been circulating for years. The words “it’s” and “received” were misspelled:13
For what its worth…. This is advice I recieved years ago and wish I had followed. “Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience”
In 1998 a columnist in a Kansas City, Missouri newspaper shared the saying with readers. No attribution was specified:14
The following funnies are from e-mail that people have fielded from the Internet and shared with me . . . Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
In January 1999 the quip appeared in the Usenet newsgroup aus.jokes, as the eighteenth item in a list titled “Dilbert’s Words of Wisdom”. Dilbert is a U.S. comic strip authored by Scott Adams. Earlier versions of the list from 1998 did not contain the quip. Several items in the list were misattributed:15
18. Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
In June 1999 an instance in the Usenet newsgroup alt.games.starcraft used the word “moron” instead of “idiot” or “fool”:16
“Never argue with a moron, they’ll drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.”
On June 2, 2009 a tweet attributed a different expression containing the phrase “Never argue with an idiot” to Mark Twain:17
@Spud31 Mark Twain (I think) said “Never argue with an idiot. People might not know the difference.”
On June 23, 2009 a tweet credited Twain with a hybrid expression:18
“Never argue with an idiot. They will beat you with experience and people listening in may not be able to tell the difference.” — Mark Twain
In July 2011 the crowd sourced website Goodreads credited Twain with a full instance using the phrase “stupid people”. Twain died in 1910, and this evidence was not substantive:19
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
In 2012 a letter published in a Whitehorse, Canada newspaper employed an instance with “idiot” and mentioned the Twain attribution with skepticism:20
. . . another quote credited to Mark Twain, but its origin is really unknown: “Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.”
In 2013 a message in Usenet Newsgroup comp.os.linux.advocacy implausibly credited George Carlin:21
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. -George Carlin
Matt Seybold is an Associate Professor of American Literature & Mark Twain Studies at Elmira College. In 2020 he wrote a valuable article on this topic. Seybold located the crucial citations in 1956 and 1958 together with other important evidence. He also discussed the friendship of Brynner and Cocteau.22
In conclusion, a precursor idea appeared as a proverb in the bible. The expression has been evolving for many years. In 1956 Yul Brynner credited Jean Cocteau with a partially matching statement. A closer match appeared in 1958, and a strong match occurred in 1993. The dubious linkage to Twain occurred many decades after his death. The attribution to George Carlin was also spurious.
Image Notes: Illustration of a jester’s hat from OpenClipart-Vectors at Pixabay.
Acknowledgements: Great thanks to Marian T. Wirth, Brian Zachary Mayer, Thayne Davidson Muller, Robert McMillan, AnxiousPony, and Jane Bella whose inquiries led QI to formulate this question and perform this exploration. Also, thanks to Matt Seybold for his pioneering research.
Update History: On March 16, 2024 the format of the bibliographical notes was updated. Also, the full article was placed on this website.
Website: TwainQuotes.com, Editor: Barbara Schmidt, (QI searched the website for quotations containing the phrase “with experience” or the phrase “drag you”. No pertinent match was discovered), Description: Mark Twain quotations, articles, and related resources. (Searched January 28, 2023) link↩︎
1948, Mark Twain at Your Fingertips by Caroline Thomas Harnsberger, (QI searched for quotations containing the phrase “with experience” or the phrase “drag you”. No pertinent match was discovered), Cloud, Inc., Beechhurst Press, Inc., New York. (Verified with search) ↩︎
Website: Center for Mark Twain Studies, Article title: The Apocryphal Twain: “Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”, Article author: Matt Seybold, Date on website: August 7, 2020, Organization description: The Elmira College Center for Mark Twain Studies was founded on December 31, 1982. The Center supports Mark Twain scholarship. (Accessed marktwainstudies.com on January 28, 2023) link↩︎
Website: Bible Hub, Article title: Parallel Verses of Proverbs 26:4, Translation: New International Version, Website description: Online Bible Study Suite. Bible hub is a production of the Online Parallel Bible Project. (Accessed biblehub.com on January 21, 2023) link↩︎
1878 April 28, The Daily Picayune, (Untitled short item), Quote Page 4, Column 1, New Orleans, Louisiana. (Newspapers_com)1878 April 28, The Daily Picayune, (Untitled short item), Quote Page 4, Column 1, New Orleans, Louisiana. (Newspapers_com) ↩︎
1878 May 20, The Rochester Evening Express, Happy Thoughts, Quote Page 4, Column 2, Rochester, New York. (Old Fulton) ↩︎
1956 November 13, The Daily Messenger, Bald, But Not Frustrated by Hal Boyle. Quote Page 8, Column 6, Canandaigua, New York. (Newspapers_com) ↩︎
1958 January 15, The Daily Tar Heel, A National Lottery: Is It A Revenue Source? by Frank Crowther, Quote Page 2, Column 7, Chapel Hill, North Carolina. (Newspapers_com) ↩︎
1978 September 12, The Memphis Press-Scimitar, Factors Serves Notice On Elvis Bootleggers by Bill E. Burk, Quote Page 5, Column 5, Memphis, Tennessee. (Newspapers_com) ↩︎
1987 July 22, The Kaplan Herald, Sauce Piquante, Start Page 1, Quote Page 13, Column 1, Kaplan, Louisiana. (Newspapers_com) ↩︎
1993 December 12, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: comp.sys.cbm, From: Ben Dewberry @f272.n633.z3.fidonet.org, Subject: Zipcode Problem Solved. (Google Groups Search; Accessed August 8, 2020) link↩︎
1997 March 7, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: aus.computers.mac, From: Shane Delforce @mugca.cc.monash.edu.au, Subject: Commonwealth Bank. (Google Groups Search; Accessed August 8, 2020) link↩︎
1997 April 9, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: alt.games.vga-planets, From: Ken B. Anderson @ANL.GOV, Subject: Re: IRC Chat: Lukeofb. . . .. (Google Groups Search; Accessed August 8, 2020) link↩︎
1998 July 9, The Kansas City Star, Internet can provide PG-rated amusement by Lewis W. Diuguid, Section: Neighborhood News, Start Page 1, Quote Page 16, Column 5, Kansas City, Missouri. (Newspapers_com) ↩︎
1999 January 20, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: aus.jokes, From: Mr. Funny Bone International @LineOne.Net, Subject: Words of Wisdom from Dilbert. (Google Groups Search; Accessed January 29, 2023) link↩︎
1999 June 6, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: alt.games.starcraft, From: Chaos-san @geocities.com, Subject: Re: clarification on newbies. (Google Groups Search; Accessed January 29, 2023) link↩︎
Tweet, From: David D, @geopsychic, Time: 2:27 PM, Date: Jun 2, 2009, Text: @Spud31 Mark Twain (I think) said … (Accessed on twitter.com on January 29, 2023) link↩︎
Tweet, From: mwalkercreative @mwalkercreative, Time: 12:16 PM, Date: Jun 23, 2009, Text: “Never argue with an idiot. They will beat you . . .” (Accessed on twitter.com on January 29, 2023) link↩︎
Website: Goodreads, Article title: Mark Twain > Quotes > Quotable Quote Timestamp on first ‘Like’: Jul 08, 2011 11:13AM, Website description: Goodreads is a large community for readers that provides book recommendations; the site is owned by Amazon. (Accessed goodreads.com on Jan 21, 2023) link↩︎
2012 November 9, Whitehorse Daily Star, Section: Letters To the Editor, Letter title: Denying the facts is simply ignorant, Letter author: Kevin Sinclair of Whitehorse, Quote Page 18, Column 5, Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada. (Newspapers_com) ↩︎
2013 October 17, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.advocacy, From: Crabbit Bampot @gmail.com, Subject: Early adopters struggle with Windows 8.1 update. (Google Groups Search; Accessed January 29, 2023) link↩︎
Website: Center for Mark Twain Studies, Article title: The Apocryphal Twain: “Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”, Article author: Matt Seybold, Date on website: August 7, 2020, Organization description: The Elmira College Center for Mark Twain Studies was founded on December 31, 1982. The Center supports Mark Twain scholarship. (Accessed marktwainstudies.com on January 28, 2023) link↩︎
