Tag: George Carlin

Never Argue With Stupid People. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level and Then Beat You With Experience

Mark Twain? George Carlin? Yul Brynner? Jean Cocteau? Bob Gray? Dilbert? Scott Adams? Anonymous?

Question for Quote Investigator: Logic and careful reasoning are the ingredients of a constructive argument. Acrimony and irrationality are the elements of a fruitless argument. The celebrated humorist Mark Twain supposedly formulated the following cautionary remark. Here are two versions:

(1) Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

(2) Never argue with stupid people because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Comedian George Carlin has also received credit. I am skeptical of both of these attributions, and I have never seen solid citations. Would you please examine this saying?

Reply from Quote Investigator: The full version of this article with additional detailed information is available on the Medium website which is available by clicking here. The abbreviated article appears below.

QI has been unable to find substantive evidence crediting this remark to Mark Twain or George Carlin. It does not appear on the Twain Quotes website edited by Barbara Schmidt,[1]Website: TwainQuotes.com, Editor: Barbara Schmidt, (QI searched the website for quotations containing the phrase “with experience” or the phrase “drag you”. No pertinent match … Continue reading nor does it appear in the large compilation “Mark Twain at Your Fingertips” edited by Caroline Thomas Harnsberger.[2]1948, Mark Twain at Your Fingertips by Caroline Thomas Harnsberger, (QI searched for quotations containing the phrase “with experience” or the phrase “drag you”. No pertinent … Continue reading

Scholar Matt Seybold of Elmira College and the Center for Mark Twain Studies examined this saying and concluded that “Mark Twain never said these words, nor anything resembling them”.[3]Website: Center for Mark Twain Studies, Article title: The Apocryphal Twain: “Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”, Article author: … Continue reading George Carlin received credit many years after the quip was circulating.

QI conjectures that the quotation evolved over time. The Bible contains a thematically related passage in Proverbs 26:4. Here is the rendering from the New International Version. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:[4]Website: Bible Hub, Article title: Parallel Verses of Proverbs 26:4, Translation: New International Version, Website description: Online Bible Study Suite. Bible hub is a production of the Online … Continue reading

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.

In 1878 April “The Daily Picayune” of New Orleans, Louisiana printed an adage depicting the underlying idea without attribution:[5] 1878 April 28, The Daily Picayune, (Untitled short item), Quote Page 4, Column 1, New Orleans, Louisiana. (Newspapers_com)

To argue with a fool is to make him your equal.

In May 1878 “The Rochester Evening Express” of Rochester, New York printed another precursor while acknowledging an Ohio source:[6] 1878 May 20, The Rochester Evening Express, Happy Thoughts, Quote Page 4, Column 2, Rochester, New York. (Old Fulton)

Don’t argue with a fool, or the listener will say there is a pair of you.—Cincinnati Breakfast Table.

QI has a separate article about a family of sayings incorrectly linked to Mark Twain which is available here: Never Argue With a Fool, Onlookers May Not Be Able To Tell the Difference.

In 1956 an Associated Press columnist spoke with the popular actor Yul Brynner who attributed a partially matching statement to prominent French artist Jean Cocteau:[7] 1956 November 13, The Daily Messenger, Bald, But Not Frustrated by Hal Boyle. Quote Page 8, Column 6, Canandaigua, New York. (Newspapers_com)

Yul said the greatest advice he ever received in life was given by the French writer Jean Cocteau, who told him:

“Never associate with idiots on their own level, because, being an intelligent man, you’ll try to deal with them on their level—and on their level they’ll beat you every time.”

The above statement used the word “associate” instead of “argue”, but within a few years the remark evolved toward the modern expression. In 1958 a columnist in “The Daily Tar Heel” of Chapel Hill, North Carolina used the word “argue”. The columnist also omitted Brynner’s name and attributed the words directly to Cocteau:[8] 1958 January 15, The Daily Tar Heel, A National Lottery: Is It A Revenue Source? by Frank Crowther, Quote Page 2, Column 7, Chapel Hill, North Carolina. (Newspapers_com)

As Jean Cocteau once said, “Never argue with an idiot, because being an intelligent man, you will argue with them on their level, and, on their level, they’ll beat you every time.”

In 1993 an instance using the phrase “win with experience” appeared in the Usenet newsgroup comp.sys.cbm. The ellipsis occurred in the original text. The word “never” or “don’t” was omitted. No attribution was specified:[9]1993 December 12, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: comp.sys.cbm, From: Ben Dewberry @f272.n633.z3.fidonet.org, Subject: Zipcode Problem Solved. (Google Groups Search; Accessed August 8, 2020) … Continue reading

… Argue with idiots, they drag you to their level & win with experience.

In 1999 a version of the quip was attributed to Scott Adams’s Dilbert comic strip character. In 2009 Mark Twain received credit for a partially matching expression. In 2013 George Carlin received credit for a version of the quip.

The full version of this article with additional detailed information is available on the Medium website which is available by clicking here.

Image Notes: Illustration of a jester’s hat from OpenClipart-Vectors at Pixabay.

Acknowledgements: Great thanks to Marian T. Wirth, Brian Zachary Mayer, Thayne Davidson Muller, Robert McMillan, AnxiousPony, and Jane Bella whose inquiries led QI to formulate this question and perform this exploration. Also, thanks to Matt Seybold for his pioneering research.

References

References
↑1 Website: TwainQuotes.com, Editor: Barbara Schmidt, (QI searched the website for quotations containing the phrase “with experience” or the phrase “drag you”. No pertinent match was discovered), Description: Mark Twain quotations, articles, and related resources. (Searched January 28, 2023) link
↑2 1948, Mark Twain at Your Fingertips by Caroline Thomas Harnsberger, (QI searched for quotations containing the phrase “with experience” or the phrase “drag you”. No pertinent match was discovered), Cloud, Inc., Beechhurst Press, Inc., New York. (Verified with search)
↑3 Website: Center for Mark Twain Studies, Article title: The Apocryphal Twain: “Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”, Article author: Matt Seybold, Date on website: August 7, 2020, Organization description: The Elmira College Center for Mark Twain Studies was founded on December 31, 1982. The Center supports Mark Twain scholarship. (Accessed marktwainstudies.com on January 28, 2023) link
↑4 Website: Bible Hub, Article title: Parallel Verses of Proverbs 26:4, Translation: New International Version, Website description: Online Bible Study Suite. Bible hub is a production of the Online Parallel Bible Project. (Accessed biblehub.com on January 21, 2023) link
↑5 1878 April 28, The Daily Picayune, (Untitled short item), Quote Page 4, Column 1, New Orleans, Louisiana. (Newspapers_com)
↑6 1878 May 20, The Rochester Evening Express, Happy Thoughts, Quote Page 4, Column 2, Rochester, New York. (Old Fulton)
↑7 1956 November 13, The Daily Messenger, Bald, But Not Frustrated by Hal Boyle. Quote Page 8, Column 6, Canandaigua, New York. (Newspapers_com)
↑8 1958 January 15, The Daily Tar Heel, A National Lottery: Is It A Revenue Source? by Frank Crowther, Quote Page 2, Column 7, Chapel Hill, North Carolina. (Newspapers_com)
↑9 1993 December 12, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: comp.sys.cbm, From: Ben Dewberry @f272.n633.z3.fidonet.org, Subject: Zipcode Problem Solved. (Google Groups Search; Accessed August 8, 2020) link

Optimist: The Glass Is Half Full. Pessimist: The Glass Is Half Empty. Comedian: The Glass Is the Wrong Size

Steve Martin? George Carlin? Terry Pratchett? O. J. Anderson? Davis Merritt Jr.? Tom Page? Allen Klein? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: Different attitudes towards life are vividly illustrated by divergent reactions to a partially filled glass:

Optimist: The glass half full
Pessimist: The glass is half empty

A third humorous category is sometimes added to the two categories above. Here are some examples:

Realist: The glass is too big
Comedian: The glass is simply the wrong size
Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

Would you please explore the history of this extended joke?

Quote Investigator: If readers wish to learn about the original simple bipartite split then they should follow this link to a separate QI article on the topic.

The family of sayings which presents a comical tripartite split is difficult to trace because the family is highly variable.

The first match located by QI appeared in the “Fort Lauderdale News” of Florida in 1977. An unnamed sports writer used an instance while describing a college football player named O.J. Anderson who emphasized the positive. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:[1] 1977 November 8, Fort Lauderdale News, College Scene: Hurricanes: Anderson Believes Miami Can Win Remaining Three, Quote Page 4E, Column 1, Fort Lauderdale, Florida. (Newspapers_com)

Optimists say the water glass is half full. Pessimists claim that it is half empty. O.J. Anderson would probably say the water is really overflowing except you can’t tell because the glass is too big. That’s how much of a positive thinker Anderson is.

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Continue reading Optimist: The Glass Is Half Full. Pessimist: The Glass Is Half Empty. Comedian: The Glass Is the Wrong Size

References

References
↑1 1977 November 8, Fort Lauderdale News, College Scene: Hurricanes: Anderson Believes Miami Can Win Remaining Three, Quote Page 4E, Column 1, Fort Lauderdale, Florida. (Newspapers_com)

I Thought the Brain Was the Most Important Organ Until I Realized What Was Telling Me That

Emo Philips? George Carlin? Richard Saul Wurman? Dale Dauten? Daniel C. Dennett? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: A prominent philosopher of consciousness and the brain included a hilarious joke in a recent book. Here are three versions:

I used to think that the human brain was the most fascinating part of the body. Then I realized, ‘look what’s telling me that’.

I used to think that my brain was the most important organ in my body, but then I thought: look who’s telling me that.

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.

This quip has been attributed to the U.S. stand-up comedians Emo Philips and George Carlin. Would you please explore its provenance?

Quote Investigator: The earliest match located by QI appeared in a comedy special starring Emo Philips broadcast in 1987 on the cable channel Home Box Office (HBO). Philips told an anecdote during which he was arrested and sent to a psychiatrist for evaluation. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:[1]YouTube video, Title: Emo Phillips HBO Comedy Special 1987, (“Philips” is misspelled as “Phillips” in the title), Uploaded on January 1, 2020, Uploaded by: Groovy Flicks, … Continue reading

Do you like psychology? I don’t. I used to think that the human brain was the most fascinating part of the body. Then I realized, whoa, ‘look what’s telling me that’.

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Continue reading I Thought the Brain Was the Most Important Organ Until I Realized What Was Telling Me That

References

References
↑1 YouTube video, Title: Emo Phillips HBO Comedy Special 1987, (“Philips” is misspelled as “Phillips” in the title), Uploaded on January 1, 2020, Uploaded by: Groovy Flicks, (Quotation starts at 35 minutes 30 seconds of 51 minutes 47 seconds), Description: Comedy special starring Emo Philips broadcast in 1987 on Home Box Office cable network), (Accessed on youtube.com on January 10, 2021)

Practice Random Acts of Kindness and Senseless Acts of Beauty

Anne Herbert? Chuck Wall? Ann Landers? George Carlin? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: Anyone listening to the news is confronted by disheartening phrases such as “random act of violence” and “ugly act of cruelty”. Yet, these phrases have been creatively reconstructed to produce uplifting suggestions. Here are three versions:

  • Practice random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty.
  • Commit acts of random kindness and senseless beauty.
  • Today I will commit one random act of senseless kindness.

Would you please explore the history of these sayings?

Quote Investigator: The earliest strong match known to QI appeared in the July 1985 issue of the influential countercultural journal “Whole Earth Review”. The California-based writer Anne Herbert penned an article titled “Random Kindness and Senseless Acts of Beauty”. Emphasis added to excerpts by QI:[1]1985 July, Whole Earth Review, Number 47, Random kindness senseless acts of beauty by Anne Herbert, Subsection: RK/SAB, Start Page 92, Quote Page 96, Point Foundation, San Francisco. (Academic One … Continue reading

Anything you think there should be more of, do it randomly. Don’t await a reason. It will make itself be more, senselessly.

Scrawl it on the wall: RANDOM KINDNESS AND SENSELESS ACTS OF BEAUTY

I used to have fantasies of positive vandalism. Breaking into the school and painting a dirty room bright colors overnight. Fixing broken glass in people’s houses while they’re gone. Leaving full meals on tables in the struggling part of town.

QI believes that Anne Herbert deserves credit for this expression. The citation above is listed in the important references “The Quote Verifier” by Ralph Keyes[2] 2006, The Quote Verifier by Ralph Keyes, Quote Page xiii, 176, and 320, St Martin’s Griffin, New York. (Verified on paper) and “The Yale Book of Quotations” edited by Fred R. Shapiro.[3] 2006, The Yale Book of Quotations by Fred R. Shapiro, Section: Anne Herbert, Quote Page 356, Yale University Press, New Haven. (Verified with hardcopy)

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Continue reading Practice Random Acts of Kindness and Senseless Acts of Beauty

References

References
↑1 1985 July, Whole Earth Review, Number 47, Random kindness senseless acts of beauty by Anne Herbert, Subsection: RK/SAB, Start Page 92, Quote Page 96, Point Foundation, San Francisco. (Academic One File Gale)
↑2 2006, The Quote Verifier by Ralph Keyes, Quote Page xiii, 176, and 320, St Martin’s Griffin, New York. (Verified on paper)
↑3 2006, The Yale Book of Quotations by Fred R. Shapiro, Section: Anne Herbert, Quote Page 356, Yale University Press, New Haven. (Verified with hardcopy)

Do You Want Six or Eight Slices of Pizza?

Yogi Berra? Ken Thompson? Bobby Bragan? Muriel Vernick? Danny Osinski? Andy Wimpfheimer? George Carlin? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: There is a comical tale about whether a pizza should be cut into six or eight slices. The punchline is typically attributed to an athlete such as Yogi Berra. Are you familiar with this joke? Would you please explore its history?

Quote Investigator: The earliest evidence of this anecdote located by QI was published on June 17, 1965 in a Nebraska newspaper which acknowledged a Wisconsin newspaper:[1] 1965 June 17, Omaha World Herald, Quick Reading: A Smile or Two, Quote Page 24, Column 2, Omaha, Nebraska. (GenealogyBank)

Ken Thompson stopped in at Dick McDaniels’ Pizza Palace the other night and ordered a pizza. When it was ready, Dick asked Ken if he wanted it cut in six or eight pieces.

Ken thought a while, and then said, “Better make it six pieces. I could never eat eight.”—Weyauwega (Wis.) Chronicle.

A variety of citations appeared in 1965 with several different ascriptions. Here are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Continue reading Do You Want Six or Eight Slices of Pizza?

References

References
↑1 1965 June 17, Omaha World Herald, Quick Reading: A Smile or Two, Quote Page 24, Column 2, Omaha, Nebraska. (GenealogyBank)

Life Is Not Measured By the Number of Breaths We Take, But By the Moments That Take Our Breath Away

George Carlin? Maya Angelou? Vicki Corona? Hilary Cooper? Kevin Bisch? Will Smith? Philip James Bailey?

Dear Quote Investigator: The following inspirational quotation has been attributed to a wide variety of people:

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

I doubt that this was coined by George Carlin or Maya Angelou though I have seen those ascriptions. Who do you think should be credited?

Quote Investigator: The earliest evidence known to QI appeared in 1989 in a book for dancers titled “Tahitian Choreographies” by Vicki Corona:[1] 1989, Tahitian Choreographies by Vicki Corona, Volume 11, Book 18, Page 36, Dance Fantasy Productions, Printed by Dennis Bolton Enterprises, North Hollywood, California. (Google Books Preview) link

Yes, there are so many grueling details and rehearsals to agonize over, but the dances and music of Tahiti add a happy, healthy dimension to our lives! Remember that life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away! Dancing can do that for you!

The above citation was uncovered by the author Phil Bolsta who was writing a book which included a large number of quotations. Bolsta admirably performed extensive research attempting to pin down the sources for the quotations in his book. Bolsta stated on his blog that he contacted Vicki Corona directly to explore the origin of the saying in her book:[2]Website: Triumph of the Spirit: Finding Peace and Purpose in a Troubled World, Article title: “Through God’s Eyes”—Sources of Quotes, Webpage description: Source notes for the … Continue reading

I was shocked to find this popular quote in a 1989 thirty-two-page booklet on Tahitian dance. I called Vicki Corona on April 17, 2012, and she said that, to the best of her knowledge, the quote was hers because she always wrote original material for the series of dance booklets she produced. However, she acknowledged in a follow-up e-mail: “While I doubt it, there is a possibility that I may have heard that verbiage before and simply went with it, or maybe it just came out from the labyrinths of my mind. Since you’re a writer, also, you know how that works when you’re in the ‘zone’.”

Hence, there is some uncertainty about the origin of this quotation in the mind of the person who employed it in 1989.

Here are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Continue reading Life Is Not Measured By the Number of Breaths We Take, But By the Moments That Take Our Breath Away

References

References
↑1 1989, Tahitian Choreographies by Vicki Corona, Volume 11, Book 18, Page 36, Dance Fantasy Productions, Printed by Dennis Bolton Enterprises, North Hollywood, California. (Google Books Preview) link
↑2 Website: Triumph of the Spirit: Finding Peace and Purpose in a Troubled World, Article title: “Through God’s Eyes”—Sources of Quotes, Webpage description: Source notes for the quotations appearing in the book “Through God’s Eyes” by Phil Bolsta, Date on website: Entry posted in May 10, 2012, Website description: Blog of the author Phil Bolsta. (Accessed bolstablog.wordpress.com on December 16, 2013) link

Military Intelligence is a Contradiction in Terms or an Oxymoron

Groucho Marx? George Carlin? John Charteris? Theodor Reik? Doctor Who? Shirley Hazzard? Niall MacDermot? Sam Ervin? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: The famous comedians Groucho Marx and George Carlin are both credited with a joke that can be expressed in many ways. Here are some examples:

Military Intelligence is an oxymoron.
Military Intelligence is a contradiction in terms.
Military Intelligence are two mutually exclusive words.
Military Intelligence are two terms that do not go together.

Did either of these well-known humorists make a remark of this type?

Quote Investigator: There is good evidence that both Groucho Marx and George Carlin employed a version of this quip. However, the earliest evidence located by QI points to a surprising person. John Charteris was a British Brigadier-General and the primary intelligence officer for Field Marshal Douglas Haig, the leader of the British Expeditionary Forces during World War I.[1]Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Entry: John Charteris, (1877–1946) by J. M. Bourne, Oxford University Press. (First published 2004; online edition dated October 2008) (Accessed … Continue reading

In 1931 Charteris wrote “At G.H.Q.” which described his experiences at the military general headquarters during the war. Charteris employed an instance of the expression when he recounted the dismissive attitude of a statesman toward information obtained via intelligence work. Boldface has been added to excerpts below:[2]1931, At G.H.Q. by John Charteris, (Diary entry is dated February 5, 1916 but the content may have been amplified at a later date), Quote Page 135 and 136, Cassell and Company, Ltd., London. … Continue reading

Curzon did not give much time to Intelligence work. I fancy Military Intelligence to him is a contradiction in terms.

The entry containing the text above appeared in a section dated February 5, 1916, but it may have been updated and amplified later, sometime between 1916 and 1931.

Here are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Continue reading Military Intelligence is a Contradiction in Terms or an Oxymoron

References

References
↑1 Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Entry: John Charteris, (1877–1946) by J. M. Bourne, Oxford University Press. (First published 2004; online edition dated October 2008) (Accessed oxforddnb.com on June 20 2012) link
↑2 1931, At G.H.Q. by John Charteris, (Diary entry is dated February 5, 1916 but the content may have been amplified at a later date), Quote Page 135 and 136, Cassell and Company, Ltd., London. (Verified on paper; Thanks to the librarians at Denison University)

Those Who Dance Are Considered Insane by Those Who Can’t Hear the Music

Friedrich Nietzsche? Megan Fox? Anne Louise Germaine de Staël? John Stewart? Norman Flint? Science Fiction fans? Angela Monet? Rumi? George Carlin? Anonymous?

Dear Quote Investigator: The following statement is credited to the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche:

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.

Yet, I have never seen a precise pointer that stated where in the works of Nietzsche this quotation appeared. I know that Nietzsche suffered a mental breakdown, so he may have been sympathetic to individuals who were labeled insane. I also know that music was very important in his thoughts and philosophy.

The quotation is so popular that the actress and supermodel Megan Fox decided to get the words tattooed across her back and side. Astutely, Fox did not include an attribution for her tattoo. If she wanted to append a credit whose name should be rendered in ink?

Quote Investigator: QI has not yet located substantive evidence that Nietzsche wrote or said the statement given above. In 2003 a message in the large distributed discussion system called Usenet attributed the quote to Nietzsche. The message appeared in the alt.quotations newsgroup.[1]2003 August 28, Usenet Newsgroup: alt.quotations, Subject: IM Friedrich Nietzsche, From: dougk. (Google Usenet groups archive; Accessed June 5, 2012) link. But Nietzsche died in 1900, so 2003 is an extremely late date.

A precursor to this statement appeared in the early Nineteenth century. In 1813 the influential writer Anne Louise Germaine de Staël published the work “De l’Allemagne” in French. The English title was “Germany”, and in 1814 an excerpt was printed in “The Universal Magazine”. Madame de Staël envisioned herself watching a ballroom filled with dancers, and she imagined her reaction if she had been unable to hear the music:[2]1814 April, The Universal Magazine, “On the Moravian Mode of Worship by Madame De Stael [From her ‘Germany’]”, Start Page 296, Quote Page 296, Column 2, Printed for Sherwood, … Continue reading

… sometimes even in the habitual course of life, the reality of this world disappears all at once, and we feel ourselves in the middle of its interests as we should at a ball, where we did not hear the music; the dancing that we saw there would appear insane.

This figurative language was employed powerfully to illustrate an episode of dissociation. Madame de Staël was temporarily alienated from the normal rush of living, and the actions of those around her seemed purposeless and absurd.

In 1927 a version similar to the common modern examples was printed in “The Times” newspaper of London where it was labelled an old proverb. This concise instance used the word “mad” instead of “insane”:[3] 1927 February 16, The Times (UK), The Dance, Page 15, Column 4, London, England. (Times Digital Archive GaleGroup)

They who dance are thought mad by those who hear not the music. The truth of the old proverb was never more surely borne out that it is just now.

This phrasing is distinct, but the core idea is the same. In recent times, the comedian George Carlin helped to popularize the phrase as shown further below.

Here are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Continue reading Those Who Dance Are Considered Insane by Those Who Can’t Hear the Music

References

References
↑1 2003 August 28, Usenet Newsgroup: alt.quotations, Subject: IM Friedrich Nietzsche, From: dougk. (Google Usenet groups archive; Accessed June 5, 2012) link.
↑2 1814 April, The Universal Magazine, “On the Moravian Mode of Worship by Madame De Stael [From her ‘Germany’]”, Start Page 296, Quote Page 296, Column 2, Printed for Sherwood, Neely, and Jones, London. (Google Books full view) [Thanks to poster RobotWisdom who shared this cite at the “Shortcuts” blog of the Guardian newspaper here] link
↑3 1927 February 16, The Times (UK), The Dance, Page 15, Column 4, London, England. (Times Digital Archive GaleGroup)

Writing About Music is Like Dancing About Architecture

Laurie Anderson? Steve Martin? Frank Zappa? Martin Mull? Elvis Costello? Thelonius Monk?

Dear Quote Investigator: I have a difficult riddle for you. A mailing list I belong to has discussed the following quotation several times during the past ten years, and the question of its origin has never been satisfactorily resolved.

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.

Laurie Anderson, Steve Martin, Frank Zappa, Martin Mull, Elvis Costello, Thelonius Monk, Clara Schumann, Miles Davis, George Carlin and several other people have been credited with concocting this extraordinarily popular and enigmatic simile. There is another common version of the quote: “Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.” Is there any chance that you could attempt to trace this famous saying?

Quote Investigator: With the help of colleagues, correspondents, and wonderful music librarians QI can report some revealing citations. The first close match appears in the “Detroit Free Press” of Michigan in February 1979 within a column titled “Bob Talbert’s quotebag” which presents miscellaneous quotations. The dots are in the original text. Emphasis added to excerpts by QI:[1] 1979 February 18, Detroit Free Press, Bob Talbert’s quotebag, Quote Page 19C, Column 5, Detroit, Michigan. (Newspapers_com)

Martin Mull . . .
. . . Comedian-musician on music criticism: “Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.”

The second close match appears in a magazine dedicated to the history of rock and roll called “Time Barrier Express”. The September-October 1979 issue contains a profile of the group Sam & Dave by Gary Sperrazza in which he discusses the interplay and rapport of the duo:[2]1979 September-October, Time Barrier Express, “Looka Here! It’s Sam & Dave!” by Gary Sperrazza, Page 25, Column 1, Issue Number 26, Volume 3, Number 6, White Plains, N.Y. … Continue reading

All quick, very natural, and captured on vinyl. It’s so hard to explain on paper, you’ll just have to find the records and listen for yourself (because I truly believe — honest — that writing about music is, as Martin Mull put it, like dancing about architecture).

Based on current evidence QI believes that Martin Mull is the most likely originator of this expression. It is not clear how Bob Talbert and Gary Sperrazza heard or read about the quotation. Mull did release several albums combining comedy and music in the 1970s. He also appeared in the television soap opera parody “Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman”, and the talk show parody “Fernwood 2 Night” (later renamed “America 2-Night”). It is possible that he used the phrase in one of these venues, or perhaps he said it during a stage performance or interview.

Researchers have been attempting to trace this well-known saying for many years. It is a recurrent topic in discussion forums and on mailing lists. Alan P. Scott was the key pioneer in this endeavor, and he has created a wonderful webpage that records his gleanings and includes a comprehensive list of people that have been credited with the quotation.[3] Alan P. Scott authored webpage about the origin of the saying “Talking about music is like dancing about architecture” (Accessed 2010 November 7) link

The clever maxim was probably not created ex nihilo. QI has found a family of similar expressions about music that date back to 1918. This backstory helps to illuminate the aphorism, and it begins with a remark involving “singing about economics.”
Continue reading Writing About Music is Like Dancing About Architecture

References

References
↑1 1979 February 18, Detroit Free Press, Bob Talbert’s quotebag, Quote Page 19C, Column 5, Detroit, Michigan. (Newspapers_com)
↑2 1979 September-October, Time Barrier Express, “Looka Here! It’s Sam & Dave!” by Gary Sperrazza, Page 25, Column 1, Issue Number 26, Volume 3, Number 6, White Plains, N.Y. (Verified using scanned images from the Music Library & Sound Recordings Archives at Bowling Green State University; Great thanks to the librarian at BGSU)
↑3 Alan P. Scott authored webpage about the origin of the saying “Talking about music is like dancing about architecture” (Accessed 2010 November 7) link
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